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insurance...
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| sitkabrett |
Posted on 08/24/09 - 8:54 PM
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are there any companies that will insure a whaler powered with an engine over the recommended horse power rating?
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| moose |
Posted on 08/25/09 - 11:26 AM
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I got mine thru USAA who uses Progressive. I got a great rate and they insured it for what I said it was worth and there was no question about the rating. Only way to find out is to give them a call.
Mike
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| Zippychippy |
Posted on 08/25/09 - 5:05 PM
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I actually had the same question. I have read that some companies will not. I wonder if they don't ask if they can refuse a claim later. I have a 15 and noticed that some of the new engines are 75 hp (Merc and Evinrude). I think that Yamaha is 70. (Maximum is 70) Also, do mechanics give you flack or refuse installing an engine that exceeds the rating? Any thoughts?
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| dauntless-n-miami |
Posted on 08/31/09 - 9:10 AM
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Hi Sitkabrett, my '96 Dauntless 15 came with a 70 h.p./ob when new. The previous owner in mid '07 re-powered with a Yamaha 90 h.p. 2 stroke and had the shop re-certify the hull for the New h.p. for insurance purposes. He had (previous owner) the Dauntless insured with Progressive, I have been quoted by them but have not yet finalized. Remember that there is a weight difference between 2 strokes and 4 strokes when compared to there horse-power.
1996 Dauntless 15, Sportsman Pkg. - 2007 Yamaha 90 HP 2-Stroke |
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| Alabama Whaler |
Posted on 08/31/09 - 9:58 AM
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As an insurance defense lawyer, I would recommend reading your policy very carefully to determine if there is an exclusion for exceeding the mfg'r recommended rating on engine size. You definitely want to know this BEFORE there is any issue involving damage. The worst time to learn of a policy exclusion is after an accident or damage. If you are concerned, ask your agent (or the company rep) this specific question.
Also, I saw a post about insuring the vessel for your "higher" estimated value. Keep in mind that your value may be higher than what the insurer ever will agree to pay if there is a loss.
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| Phil T |
Posted on 08/31/09 - 10:11 AM
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If you shop around, you will find companies that will insure for declared/agreed-upon value and higher horsepower.
There is no way to re-certify a hull rating. The Nantucket model had a lower maximum horsepower rating than when renamed as the 190 Outrage. A member's attempts to obtain a new USCG plate was not possible.
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| damdonzi |
Posted on 08/31/09 - 3:24 PM
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All it takes is 1 accident and 1 semi-sharp lawyer to come after your house, savings, business, etc.... once your insurance carrier tells you that your vessel is illegally powered and not covered. Why even think about risking it? Just because they don't look into it when you take out the policy does not mean they won't when there is an accident.
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| MW |
Posted on 08/31/09 - 5:27 PM
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I'm just thinking of "God forbid" an accident...I can just picture "Marine Enforcement" pointing to an "over powered " hull and noting it on the accident report. I think that when it went to court you'd really be "Hangin it out there" !
Matt |
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| sitkabrett |
Posted on 08/31/09 - 6:24 PM
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well I guess the answer is to just shop around....I have a 20 outrage now and I honestly think those boats should be rated for 250 at least. I think most of the Whaler models are rated too low. anyone else have that thought?
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| dauntless-n-miami |
Posted on 08/31/09 - 9:45 PM
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My thoughts are, at least in my case outboard technology has evolved incredibly since 1996 when my Dauntless was built. My '07 90 h.p. 2 stroke weighs less than and is much more efficient than the 70 or 75 h.p that came on her in '96. What is the determining factor when stating that a hull is over powered other than the obvious, ripping the transom off. Is it a boat that can easily get on plane with 4 adults, fishing or diving gear and still get decent fuel consumption while cruising at 30-35 mph. Is it a boat owner that can avoid some other boaters bad judgement, only because he or she had the extra muscle to power out and away from a misfortune. I feel these are just a few senarios that should be considered by boat insurance co. There should be a new standard for evaluating older hull designs with regards to the latest outboard technologies being offered. The previous owner of my boat is an insurance underwriter and he had done his research before re-powering. It's possible that other states have more stringent rules governing these power upgrades, maybe things are just a bit different here in So. Fla., any how just my 2 cents worth. Enjoy "summer" is almost over...
1996 Dauntless 15, Sportsman Pkg. - 2007 Yamaha 90 HP 2-Stroke |
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| whalerman |
Posted on 09/01/09 - 12:53 PM
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Form an engineering standpoint, hulls going through water can only go just so fast before things sart to go bad, No matter what shape the hull is. Whether its a displacement hull, semi-displacement or planing hull. Plain and simple. Would you take out the engine in your car and put in a Z06 corvette engine?? Yea it would be "cool" but, the rest of the car would come apart. These days the general public can barely handle what they bought, let alone one that has been altered to more power than whats prescribed by the boat manufacture. I could also talk about the make up of fiberglass resins, matting material and how that has changed bringing lighter and stronger hulls than in the years past and are still "evolveing" today.
THOM : 1999 Outrage 18, 2012 E-TEC 150, 2012 EZ Loader trailer |
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| dauntless-n-miami |
Posted on 09/01/09 - 7:27 PM
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I agree with your input Whalerman, but not all boaters will be raging lunatics when reconfiguring an older boat. With the current economy an average house hold will not spend 30 to 50k for a new "technologies" boat knowing well how it will depreciate. In turn they may invest in a used boat for a few thousand or even less that may need some fixer-up's. First item will be power in most cases. With the increase of fuel cost it's only logical to outfit a vessel (if re-powering) with the most efficient and cost effective motor. 4 strokes are nice but heavier, my Dauntless 15 would probably require a 50-60hp 4 stroke (because of the weight) and still be slightly under powered for getting on plane with my family aboard. Explain to me why a typical 18-20 ft. flats boat would need a 250-300 hp outboard. Now that a wild ride! It's a known fact that for years auto makers posted lesser H.P. ratings for most makes to get by EPA, Insurance and other government groups. Why won't boat builders use this tactic to diffuse certain expenses and government agencies. Never the less, as the saying goes "theres no replacement for displacement". Gearhead talk.
1996 Dauntless 15, Sportsman Pkg. - 2007 Yamaha 90 HP 2-Stroke |
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| whalerman |
Posted on 09/01/09 - 8:12 PM
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No, I can't explain why a flats boat would need 300 hp. I'll have to admit that I had a 17' sport, '82, with a 115 hp Johnson on the stern. The engine was one on the strong side of the hp curve. Had to be very careful where and when I could open her up and trim out so that the last few feet of the hull and prop were in the water. I can see why we like to go to the edge and back, it's our nature. Just a note this past summer there were more new CC's with 300 and 350 hp engines than ever, but thats what I was talking about in the new boat construction. Oh, nor can I explain why a bass boat needs 300 hp either, other than to return on time enough for weigh-in. As said "no replacement for displacement".
THOM : 1999 Outrage 18, 2012 E-TEC 150, 2012 EZ Loader trailer |
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| kamie |
Posted on 09/01/09 - 8:20 PM
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the max HP rating for a hull is calculated based on a formula listed in the code of federal register or CFR,
F=L x W, (2xF)-90 = HP rounded up to the nearest 5.
For the 18 outrage
f=18.5 x 7.16 = 132.46
(2 X 132.46)-90 = 174.92 rounded to the closest 5 makes the max HP an 18 Outrage could be rated for as 175HP. The manufacture has the ability to assign a lower HP rating to their hull but they can't assign a HP rating over what the formula allows. This only applies to boats LOA 20 foot and under
The Coast Guard does not prohibit you from powering your boat more than the rated HP, it is not illegal from a federal standard, although there are many states that have made it illegal.
if you are going to power above the capacity plate, in a state where it is legal you should tell your insurance agent when they write the policy. If you do not, that is considered fraud and they do not have to pay any claims, and will probably drop you. There are insurance companies that will insure the boat and not have a problem with it.
As for getting into an accident, it depends on what happened if the HP would be a factor. If I am at anchor with correct lights visable and someone runs into me, I doubt that the engine HP on my hull would be a factor. If on the other hand, I was running flat out and ran into someone it could or could not be a factor. Most flats boats that sport the 300HP are in excess of 20 feet LOA so the formulas don't apply. The manufactures can assign a high HP rating, although from what I have seen, bass boats are low and heavy. Just don't take them out in the chop.
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| whalerman |
Posted on 09/01/09 - 8:43 PM
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Oh yeah! I knew someone might just have the CFR'S handy. Couldn't put my hands on them as they're on the towboat. Thanks for the chime in.
THOM : 1999 Outrage 18, 2012 E-TEC 150, 2012 EZ Loader trailer |
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| dauntless-n-miami |
Posted on 09/02/09 - 5:49 PM
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Hello Whalerman, just got done using the formula to calculate max H.P. for my '96 Dauntless 15. Please check my figures for acuracy. If I did it right my yamaha 90 should not be a problem.
L.O.A. = 15'-1" Beam =6'-4"
f=15.1 x 6.4= 96.64, (2 x 96.64) - 90= 103.28
1996 Dauntless 15, Sportsman Pkg. - 2007 Yamaha 90 HP 2-Stroke |
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| kamie |
Posted on 09/02/09 - 6:32 PM
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Dauntless,
you live in Florida, and from the boating rules & regulations
"No person may operate a monohull boat of less than 20 feet in length while exceeding the maximum weight, persons, or horsepower capacity as displayed on the manufacturer's capacity plate"
http://myfwc.com/RULESANDREGS/Rules_B...at.htm#max
Florida is one of those states where state law has made it illegal to over power a boat.
As for the calculation your close
f=(15+(1/12)) x (6+(4/12)) = 95.527
(2x95.527) - 90 = 101.055 or 105HP
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| dauntless-n-miami |
Posted on 09/02/09 - 8:12 PM
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Thanks Kamie for the re-calc. To be honest, the capacity plate on my boat does not display horse-power only weight or 6 persons max. Unless there was an aditional plate and it was removed before I bought it. Any ideas how the capacity plate for a '96 Dauntless 15 might have been configured. Thanks again...
1996 Dauntless 15, Sportsman Pkg. - 2007 Yamaha 90 HP 2-Stroke |
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| number9 |
Posted on 09/02/09 - 9:21 PM
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Just to clarify the CFR referenced, it is for "OUTBOARDS WITH REMOTE STEERING AND A TRANSOM HEIGHT OF AT LEAST 20 INCHES"
Bill...On the Ogeechee
1984 Outrage 18...Yamaha T50...that's right, 50hp |
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| Binkie |
Posted on 09/03/09 - 3:22 AM
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Boat builders prior to 1972 were not required to place id#s on there boats, although some do. Did my '61 thirteen footer have a capasity plate on it when new? Was that a requirement but id # not a requirement?
Rich |
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