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Closing Transom on 1984 25' Outrage Opinions??
msl	#1  Posted on 09/10/14 - 3:26 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 42 Comments: 0 Joined: 10/06/05	Looking for opinions on some up coming work on my 25 Outrage. Currently the boat has 1999 Mercury Opti Max motors that are 25" shafts and are mounted on 8" set back jack plates and the transom is original. Option one: Raise the transom 5" to be able to accept 25" shaft twin 150HP, will need new steering Option two: mount a new meaning used low hour 300HP Option three: Close transom in, add flotation bracket and mount twin 150HP will need new steering Option four: Close transom in, add flotation bracket and mount single 300HP I need to come up with a plan, had a catastrophic failure on one jacket... that is a story for later.. I am going to be interviewing a few shops and I am interested from hearing thought/experiences along with monetary value on what you figure the cost being. My motors still run, just the port will need to be worked on to straighten out.. So I am complicating possible replacing one motor, or possible both twins with used ones or possible 300HP.. Obliviously there is a lot of thought going on and I am leaving all option open but plan to have something done very soon that I hope to have complete prior to March/April 2015. Mike
rwethereyet	#2  Posted on 09/10/14 - 8:11 PM
Member Posts: 51 Comments: 0 Joined: 12/12/10	Enclosing the transom is possible and costly. I was interested in pursuing that on my 1992 outrage 19 I. I talked to several fiberglass guys and several high end boat builders. All advised me not to modify the hull. If your serious, I would do the same and consult with your local fiberglass guys and any high end boat builders. I would think the easy thing to do would be to repair the transom if needed to accommodate a single motor. If considering twin motors, a pair of used or new suzuki 140's could be a good option (cheaper and less weight). Do you need jack plates....? The less you need to modify the better.......my opinion... Edited by rwethereyet on 09/10/14 - 8:20 PM rwethereyet 1992 Outrage 19' I, 2012 Suzuki DF 140
msl	#3  Posted on 09/11/14 - 4:00 AM
Member Personal Page Posts: 42 Comments: 0 Joined: 10/06/05	The current motors have 25 inch shafts, for running twins on this model of whaler it calls for 20 inch shafts. So the original owner added the jack plates when installing the current motors to achieve the correct installment height. As far as transom damage really do not think that is an issue as I do have a large angle bracket that covers the interior of the transom. And when the motor fell it only left one nick the size of a dime at the bottom of the transom where it meet the bottom of the haul. My current motors are 1999 and have right around 1,000 hours which is basically 100,000 in car miles. I think I should be able to get new used 150 Opti Max motors for around $6-9K installed and I would not need new controls and only need to add new steering. All the steering was on the motor that fell and the slave is still standing. Either way the existing jack plates will be removed. Finding a set of used twin 20 inch shaft motors will be very tough. Think there is 25 on this site where someone has already raised their transom 5 inches, it looked very clean and I think it had a single Yamaha on her. I kind of fear putting a single on the the back since I am so used to how my boat handles with twin, kind of feel this haul is made for the twins too (just my opinion). The boat is mainly used for fishing the Chesapeake and a family boat. We might make 2-3 trip down to the Bay Bridge Tunnel or run off shore 1-3 times a year, other than that we are running from the Baltimore Light House down to Solomons Island region in the central part of the bay. This haul has been great to me and I plan to have her for another 30 years so this will be a long term investment as new boat prices are crazy high for something comparable in ride and dryness. The only down fall I really have with the haul would be the low open transom, especially when drift fishing in a rough sea of 3 footers plus, have taken a couple waves over the stern in the past. We have also run her 80 miles out in the ocean, so she has seen her share of 8 footers plus on few return trips (but have never felt unsafe once). So currently I am leaning towards raising the transom to eliminate the jack plates completely. As for the motors, I am on the fence, repair, used twin or used 300HP... I have seen several with singles on 25 footer but I would be really curious to hear from someone who has taking their twins off and installed a single screw, what are your feeling now; any regret?
Phil T	#4  Posted on 09/11/14 - 10:33 AM
Administrator Personal Page Personal Album Project Albums Posts: 6986 Comments: 6 Joined: 03/26/05	My opinion, reuse the jack plates and spend the available money on engines, not fiberglass shops. I would be wary of transom weight for new power. Twins are nice but a modern single is less weight than twin 4 strokes. Twin F150's are 960 LBS F300 is 560 lbs
gchuba	#5  Posted on 09/11/14 - 11:43 AM
Member Posts: 1675 Comments: 0 Joined: 03/31/13	Also, best to confirm with the manufacturer of the jack plate the weight and horse power rating. Your existing jack plates might not be rated for a single large motor. I recently purchased a "Bobs Machine" jack plate that is rated for 300hp. He has an extreme jack plate thate goes up to 350hp. Garris
msl	#6  Posted on 09/11/14 - 3:03 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 42 Comments: 0 Joined: 10/06/05	Jack Plates will not go back on my boat at all... That is why I am in the position I am in currently. No damage to my transom, that is the one thing the jack plate prevented, only had dime size nick on bottom and stern edge. Plus decent jack plates will run around $1K a piece after shipping and for another grand I have quote for raising the transom which sounds great to me instead dealing with any mechanical part failures like I just did. Panther Marine was the manufacture of the jack plate that failed. I have had nothing but issues with their products since purchasing the boat around 10 years ago or less. Think I have gone through 3 actuators and different relay switches.. Would rather add 5" to transom if I am going to continue running twins, it will be near impossible to find a used pair of 20" shaft motors (this is the only way to mount directly to transom with no mods). Yamaha F150's are too heavy. The boat stays in the water from March till November.
Joe Kriz	#7  Posted on 09/11/14 - 4:17 PM
Site Owner Personal Page Personal Album Photo Albums Project Albums Posts: 11431 Comments: 452 Joined: 03/18/05	Option two: mount a new meaning used low hour 300HP Sounds like option two is the cheapest and easiest. Leave the transom stock and put on a 25 inch shaft single motor. E-Tec 300hp = 528 pounds and 25 inch shaft http://www.evinrude.com/en-us/engines...tec_300_v6 Yamaha F300 Offshore = 562 pounds and 25 inch shaft http://yamahaoutboards.com/outboards/...ifications Other motors of about the same config are all available new or slightly used. Edited by Joe Kriz on 09/11/14 - 4:20 PM
bcoastal	#8  Posted on 09/11/14 - 5:37 PM
Member Posts: 291 Comments: 0 Joined: 08/15/12	I went from twins to a single Honda 250 on my 1986 25' outrage. Plenty of power and fuel mileage is amazing. I did have a hard time finding a good newer used motor so I went new. Nobody will get rid of a good newer 4 stroke unless you find them upgrading to more power.
msl	#9  Posted on 09/11/14 - 6:48 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 42 Comments: 0 Joined: 10/06/05	bcostal- how was it adjusting to single screw, especially in mobility in tight corner turning at low speeds? Think this is the part I am afraid of losing, especially since my slip is fairly tight. I actually only use the motors when pulling in and out of my slip. Joe- those are option that I am definitely willing to entertain. My biggest concern right now is having a better understanding of what I will need to do control and steering wise monetarily. The actual cost for the twin/raising the transom (with used Optimaxs only since the boat is already set on controls) compared to a used 300 with be almost less than grand or possibly closer. Figuring raising the transom is $3K (have firm quote) and used Optimaxs will run me between $7-9K and steering will be another grand for a guess-I-mate at around $13K . Then for a used 300hp the prices are all over the place but just from searching the web I think I am looking at turn key installed $12-14K.. I received a quote today for closing in the transom and adding a flotation bracket along with setting motors of my choice for around $9K (less the cost of motors), so it would be more like $16-19K going this route. This not going to happen, out of budget. So it is a toss up between option 1 & 2, but the biggest decision will be finding the right motors that I will be comfortable with down the road. I am not bias to one brand or another
bcoastal	#10  Posted on 09/12/14 - 5:47 AM
Member Posts: 291 Comments: 0 Joined: 08/15/12	I took off the twins when I got my boat. I do not have any trouble maneuvering it with a single though. I feel like 50% of 25ft boats have singles and manage just fine.
dauntless-n-miami	#11  Posted on 09/12/14 - 6:18 AM
Member Personal Page Project Albums Posts: 315 Comments: 0 Joined: 11/05/08	Hello msl, I'm not sure I followed correctly so please bear with me. You have twin 25 inch motors on raised jack-plate for proper height setting,yes? Your whaler if configured for twins and if properly set-up will accommodate 20 inch motors, yes? I read you have one Opti that will require some service and my thoughts are; would it be feasible to repair damaged outboard, remount your Opti twins straight to transom and source two 20 inch lower unit assemblies and refit. I assume the 25 inch Opti uses a spacer between the mid-section and lower unit? Obviously the connecting studs will need to be changed out for the correct length type. In past years I have done similar refits to Mercury outboards when rigging powerboats for single, twins and even with triples. It may be an option for you seeing as your already rigged for Mercury's. Maybe you can even refresh the powerheads if it fits into your budget. Just my "2-cents" on the subject... Angel M. 1996 Dauntless 15, Sportsman Pkg. - 2007 Yamaha 90 HP 2-Stroke
Phil T	#12  Posted on 09/12/14 - 11:11 AM
Administrator Personal Page Personal Album Project Albums Posts: 6986 Comments: 6 Joined: 03/26/05	jack plates will run around $1K a piece after shipping Are you talking about a jack plate or a setback bracket? I question the price for a 5 inch Bob's Machine Shop bracket. Please clarify. Regardless of all the prices, many agree to keep the weight off the transom so that means NO brackets, raising transoms or heavy 4 strokes. Why not go with a single DFI ETEC or new generation Optimax?
Finnegan	#13  Posted on 09/12/14 - 3:37 PM
Member Posts: 1925 Comments: 16 Joined: 05/02/08	I am familiar with your boat, and know the original owner, Quinn. I am surprised the hydraulic jackplates failed, but salt water is a tough environment for those devices. As an owner of an Outrage 25 Sea Drive Blank (a full transom boat), bought new in 1989, I can appreciate your problem. See the Personal Webiste photos. Back in 1987, when 25" counter-rotating engines first became available, Whaler solved the problem by offering the Whaler Drive models, which use 25" twins. At this same time, they should have also raised the cut transom hulls to 30", but did not. On most of the commercial 22 and 25' hulls, beginning in the early 90's, they actually offered this as a factory option, and most were built this way. In your case, my set of options/recommendations would be three, regardless of whether you repower with a single or twins: 1. Reconsider use of jackplates, specifically those offered by Detwiler, now a divison of Teleflex. They are constructed of black and silver anodized aluminum which is needed for salt water use. I would consider the manual versions, forgetting the hyudraulic complications, expense and possible trouble. They make one with as little setback as 4". I have these installed on two different Whalers, and they are good looking and excellent and will not fail on you. See photos of my Outrage 19 and Montauk. Cost is about $350 each, and this will be your least expensive, but successful, solution. Combined with what the jackplate can accomodate in lift, plus the 5 mounting holes on Mercs, you can get all the height you need. 2. You may not be aware that an Armstong transom bracket, like I use, can be installed directly on a cut transom hull, with no modification to the transom needed other than closing in a few transom drain tubes. In your case, the top surface of the platform is installed 5" higher than the existing notch, efectively raising it 5" and keeping most water out. A dual engine bracket is recommended, with 6" side platforms. I am guessing this will be about a $4000 installation, and will require some steering upgrades and longer engine cables (buy Teleflex Xtreme premium cables). 3. Have the transom raised 5" to 30". On all 22 and 25' Guardians that BW manufactured in later years, this work was done after the hull came out of the mold, so it is something a good shop can do if they know what they are doing. Whaler Commercial Products may be able to give you some specifications on how this should be done. All of the Whaler Drive full transom boats were also modified after the mold. Even if you are going to use a single, you want it to be a 30" model, to get the powerhead high enough. I would stay with twins, and you might also consider the brand new 3.0 liter Merc 150 4-stroke EFI 150's for about 10K each. Strong and quiet, and lightest on the market, only 30# more than the DFI 2-strokes. I know those early Opti's you have been running are anything but quiet!
msl	#14  Posted on 09/17/14 - 7:17 AM
Member Personal Page Posts: 42 Comments: 0 Joined: 10/06/05	Finnegan-- That is some good info!! I am still weighing my options, kids getting close to college will not allow new motors so I am more than likely going to replace with used twin or the single. With Twins I will more than likely raise the transom and with a single I would more than likely just add trim tabs and leave well enough alone. Do you really feel the power head would sit too low on a single even though whaler says 25" shaft on a single? These jack plates have been nothing but an issue since day one, but I truly feel it is just a poor manufactured product and definitely not made as a salt water product since they are mainly used on fresh water bass boats. Funny you should say how loud these motors are, my buddies in the neighborhood know when I am coming and going through the inlet into our river. They are loud but, to be honest it really does not bother me, think I am at that tone deaf stage in life. I am aggressively looking for a set of 2004 or newer Optis, which will be a needle in a hay stack or even a set of ETECS. Once this search is exhausted, I will either repair the existing motor or go with a single. It is still early but I would like to have this all wrapped up before March of next year. Phil T-- the jack plate number is from hip that would cover cost for install too, a bracket will run close to $3K. I am searching for newer motors but used ones. Not in a position right now for new motors. Insurance will be covering the entire cost at this point.
Finnegan	#15  Posted on 09/17/14 - 1:46 PM
Member Posts: 1925 Comments: 16 Joined: 05/02/08	I see used sets of engines, even triples, all brands, regularly advertized and purchased on "thehulltruth.com". If you have a little patience and check it regularly, you will find what you are looking for. That seems to be the biggest market for used outboards.
gchuba	#16  Posted on 09/17/14 - 7:33 PM
Member Posts: 1675 Comments: 0 Joined: 03/31/13	I have had my best luck buying a boat that had the engines I wanted. Take your time and search diligently. My repowered 1979 22' Revenge got a 2009 HO 200hp Etec plus other goodies (anchor winch, boat cover, rocket launchers, instruments and rigging, power steering) for $6000 after the resale of the original purchase. Bide your time and jump. Garris
msl	#17  Posted on 09/18/14 - 10:11 AM
Member Personal Page Posts: 42 Comments: 0 Joined: 10/06/05	Have a post on THT and have been checking daily. There is another guy looking for a similar set too.