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Circuit breaker 1989 Outrage 18
tom blinstrub	#1  Posted on 04/15/14 - 7:38 AM
Member Personal Page Posts: 369 Comments: 0 Joined: 12/14/09	I am in the process of redoing the wiring in the console. I removed all the wiring and switch panel. At the starboard rear corner of the hull there is a tan plastic box with a circuit breaker of some sort that is totally corroded. I want replace it but don't know how many amps the new one should be.I will be running a depth finder,chartplotter, bilge pump and running lights. I am thinking of mounting the circuit breaker in the battery box.There is a fuse panel in the console and fuses on the switch panel. Im not sure why the circuit breaker is needed with the other fuse panels. I suppose I should mount a circuit breaker seeing it came with one. Any idea how many amps the new circuit breaker should be? 15? 20? 25?
gchuba	#2  Posted on 04/15/14 - 8:06 AM
Member Posts: 1675 Comments: 0 Joined: 03/31/13	I have a 22ft 1979 Revenge. My boat came with a 30 amp circuit breaker leading to the fuses inside the cuddy cabin. The fixture looked like an on/off light switch. The wiring was a complete mess. When installing the new wires with new fuse panel I was informed by my resource (Fred Fritz Electronics) that the circuit breaker was not needed. I re installed it as a half-ass anti theft device (probably useless in that role, if a thief wants it, they'll take it) because it is locked in the cuddy cabin in an obscure place. I turn it off when I leave the boat. Helps if I forget to turn off a light and drain a battery. However, I have a bilge pumps that bypasses the circuit breaker for rain water removal. Check on all the amp ratings of your accessories. My Cannon Downriggers have separate 30 amp breakers coming off the batteries directly. Without seeing the original wiring, did it service the fuses or was it separate for an accessory? gchuba Edited by gchuba on 04/15/14 - 8:13 AM
tom blinstrub	#3  Posted on 04/15/14 - 8:49 AM
Member Personal Page Posts: 369 Comments: 0 Joined: 12/14/09	It was in line from the battery to the switch panel. The positive and negative wire was way thicker than the fuel tank ground wire( way overkill for what I need.)
gchuba	#4  Posted on 04/15/14 - 9:49 AM
Member Posts: 1675 Comments: 0 Joined: 03/31/13	Tom, the thickness (gauge) of wire is determined by lengths of run with the amperage desired at the final destination. They have a lot of tables to help figure this stuff out. You need to measure the distance from your batteries to your panel and go from there. If you are going to rewire and upgrade you may want to consider moving the batteries to the console at this time and get it done with once and for all. If you are happy with the existing lay out, take some measurements and figure wire sizing accordingly. 30 amps at the console offers a lot of flexibility. gchuba
tom blinstrub	#5  Posted on 04/15/14 - 10:43 AM
Member Personal Page Posts: 369 Comments: 0 Joined: 12/14/09	The red and black power wires run from the starboard transom up under the gunnel forward to the plastic side cover near the console down under the floor cover next to the tank and up into the console. I plan to reroute the wires to run in the rigging tunnel which will give me enough extra wire to move the battery to the port side to offset the weight of the trolling motor which I run on the starboard side. I plan on putting a 30 amp circuit breaker inline under the battery cover. If I run the running lights,depthfinder,chartplotter and bilge pump at the same time it should be OK I think. Does that sound OK?
gchuba	#6  Posted on 04/15/14 - 11:16 AM
Member Posts: 1675 Comments: 0 Joined: 03/31/13	Tom, if you are re-routing the wires through the rigging tunnel really check out the condition of the old wire as well as its gauge. Not much money to start with fresh material. 30 amps will easily run the accessories you are talking about. I would probably place the breaker in the console out of the potential weather (instead of under the battery cover at the stern of the boat). I have an externally mounted waterproof (right?) 30 amp breaker for my downriggers underneath the gunnels. Nice access for alligator clipped accessories plus immediate shutdown for downrigger electrical. Were you "fusing" or circuit breaking underneath the battery cover? I would not recommend a fuse there if servicing the console. Nasty access if blown that shuts everything down. I like my electrical circuit breaking/fuses with easy access. I had a bilge pump go down at a most inconvenient time and I (as well as my guests) loved the immediate fuse replacement. Been having fun with this link while finishing taxes and loading the truck. Will come back to it this evening. gchuba Edited by gchuba on 04/15/14 - 11:18 AM
tom blinstrub	#7  Posted on 04/15/14 - 11:24 AM
Member Personal Page Posts: 369 Comments: 0 Joined: 12/14/09	Your probably right, If the tunnel is full of water and the wires short circuit the circuit breaker should be in the console.
Tom Hemphill	#8  Posted on 04/15/14 - 6:12 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 135 Comments: 1 Joined: 01/19/08	I think you may have it backwards, If your battery is in the stern and wires from it go through the rigging tunnel to the console, you want a circuit breaker near the battery to protect those wires. If the wires develop a short circuit a fire could result.
gchuba	#9  Posted on 04/15/14 - 7:04 PM
Member Posts: 1675 Comments: 0 Joined: 03/31/13	I'll go back to my resource that said that the circuit breaker was not necessary. I would not have a problem running new and the correctly gauged wire from the battery to the console fuse panel. The fuses in the panel are the first line of "defense" and are intended to "blow" to save the accessory. There should never be an non-fused wire to the battery. That is why you follow manufacturers guidelines for amperage and they usually have wire sizing with length of run. I kept my circuit breaker in place because of convenience (when working on wiring I could flip a switch for on/off instead of getting up from being on my side in a cubby hole to re attach the battery cable), because of shut down of juice to save battery discharge if appliance left on by mistake, because it was already installed and it covered the holes and drilling that was done when originally installed (it hid its own blemish), because it can serve as a junction for a separate accessory, because it does not hurt. I believe it is more important to have new jacketed wire in the pull chamber than circuit breakers on either side. My bilge pumps are independent of the circuit breaker (they are independently fused). I installed (and would recommend) a new fuse panel if any corrosion is present. I changed mine over from the original agc glass fuses to the ato/atc automotive style fuses. Wiring is unique to the boat (original instruments installed at dealerships and who knows what's there until you look). Keep it clean, keep it accessible and know exactly where things are. gchuba Edited by gchuba on 04/15/14 - 7:10 PM
gchuba	#10  Posted on 04/15/14 - 8:47 PM
Member Posts: 1675 Comments: 0 Joined: 03/31/13	Tom Hemphill mentioned fires with a short circuit. I have had three personal instances with fires involving 12 volt systems. Not in boats but the same philosophy. I had (have) a habit of battery swapping in tractors because they would go dead between use and I was cheap. I had a very poor connection cranking a swapped battery with a poor terminal connection and some paper debri fell on the terminal head and caught fire. My key switch was stuck in the start position and the noise of the motor prevented me from hearing the starter whining and totally cooked the starter and horribly melted the connecting wire. I had swapped 4 plus motors in my 1974 International one ton and a hot wire was unaccounted for after one of the swaps and grounded. Turning off the key prevented loss of the truck. Fire was ready to start in 20 seconds. I do no know if circuit breakers or fuses can truly prevent a fire. I do know that accounting for every wire, as well as, healthy clean connections with properly sized wires will help prevent a fire. Last year a boat caught fire at Spud Point Marina (electrical determined cause). All the locals emptied their fire extinguishers but the best they could do was drag it away from the berth because once the plastic caught fire the heat was damaging the neighbor's boat. All the repowering, motor height, condition of wood/varnish, etc... is nice. To me you dial in the electrical and work from there. It does not need to be sophisticated with transfers, 3 batteries, etc.. just solid and clean connections with heated/shrink fittings, good connections. If Mr. Blinstrub wants to move a single battery from starboard to port to counter the weight of the stern. Do it with new wire, size it, see what is the best positioning for access with fusing/circuit breakers in the console. Enjoy the ride. gchuba
Tom W Clark	#11  Posted on 04/15/14 - 8:56 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 4280 Comments: 7 Joined: 09/30/05	I believe the circuit breaker that Whaler used was a 30 amp breaker. Whaler did not always use a circuit breaker to protect the wire run from battery to console for accessories, but by 1989, they certainly did. This should *not* be construed to mean that 1989 and later boats ought to have the wiring run protected and older boat do not need to. The idea behind having a circuit breaker or fuse near the battery is to protect the heavy gauge wires running for the battery to the distribution bus bar in the console. Yes, each individual fixture is (or ought to be) protected by its own fuse, but the long wire run form battery to console will become a big hot mess if the two conductors are short circuited. I believe Whaler started offering this additional protection on the mid-1980s. My own 1983 Outrage 18 had a circuit breaker, but it was mounted in the console itself leaving the wiring run from the stern vulnerable. Indeed, I did suffer a short circuit that melted some wiring on my Johnson 150 at one point many years ago. I am more sensitive to how the wiring is protected now. By at least 1985, Whaler added a circuit breaker in the stern for the Outrage 18.
Joe Kriz	#12  Posted on 04/15/14 - 11:45 PM
Site Owner Personal Page Personal Album Photo Albums Project Albums Posts: 11434 Comments: 452 Joined: 03/18/05	My 1985 Outrage 18' had the 50 amp circuit breaker under the console. Don't confuse this circuit breaker with having anything to do with your motor or motor harness. This circuit breaker is for accessories only as far as I know and have ever seen. There are 2 completely different systems on most larger Whalers. 1. Circuit breaker for accessories 2. Fuse (or circuit breaker) built into your motor or motor harness for the motor only. Let's separate the 2 here. 1. The motor The motor has its own harness running from the motor to the console and specifically the key switch. It also has 2 leads that connect directly to the battery. Negative and Positive. Nothing else is needed for the motor to start or run. (gauges are connected to the engine harness if wanted) 2. Accessories This is where the 30 amp circuit breaker comes in. This is for the running lights, radio, fish finder, or any other accessory. It generally has 2 wires (ground directly to the console and positive that runs through the breaker) that run from the battery to a fuse/junction block. It doesn't matter where the breaker is located but closer to the battery eliminates chance of chafing wires in longer runs. Even if the circuit breaker is located near the battery, the wiring from the battery to the circuit breaker is vulnerable to shorting. It still should pop the breaker. So, each circuit is separate from each other. (except maybe the ground where this can be tapped into for any ground needed) The motor will start and run without the other accessory breaker and visa versa. Meaning if you remove the motor and the motor wiring harness, the accessories still work by themselves and are protected by its own separate circuit breaker. Note: One important thing to remember is never run the motor without a battery connected. The charging system from the motor can send current to weird places like a tachometer and burn it out and possible create a fire. Could also burn out the charging system, etc. Always have a battery connected even if it is dead. This way the charging current has somewhere to go safely.
tom blinstrub	#13  Posted on 04/16/14 - 5:17 AM
Member Personal Page Posts: 369 Comments: 0 Joined: 12/14/09	Im going with new wires and the circuit breaker near the battery. The old circuit breaker was inside of a tan colored cover screwed to the hull by 4 screws under the starboard gunnel. There was a reset button sticking out the top of the cover. The 2 terminals were so corroded I could not tell what kind of screws they were.I did not see anything like it at West marine. I will probably buy a 30 amp one with a switch and mount it under the gunnel. Thanks for all the input.
gchuba	#14  Posted on 04/16/14 - 6:11 AM
Member Posts: 1675 Comments: 0 Joined: 03/31/13	Tom, check out the "Blue Sea 30 amp waterproof circuit breaker 7136 187 series" (I have two of them under my gunnels for my downriggers) with the Blue Sea negative junction post next to it. Joe, well said. gchuba
Tom W Clark	#15  Posted on 04/16/14 - 7:35 AM
Member Personal Page Posts: 4280 Comments: 7 Joined: 09/30/05	The exploded Parts Manual for the Outrage 18 (available in the Downloads Section) shows the circuit breaker in the stern exactly as Tom Blindstrub describes it. That drawing is dated November 1985 which would puts it in the 1986 model year. Based on Joe's comment about this own 1985 Outrage 18 (which I assume had the circuit breaker in the same location as my Outrage 18, in the console just above the door frame on the rear, under the switch panels), I suspect 1986 was the model year it first was used in that position.
Finnegan	#16  Posted on 04/16/14 - 12:01 PM
Member Posts: 1926 Comments: 16 Joined: 05/02/08	I can confirm that my 1986 Outrage 18, manufactured in late April 1986, has the starboard stern mounted 50 amp push button type circuit breaker, as Tom B describes. My 1989 Outrage 25 also has the same device, in the same location. They protect the 8 gauge wire bringing house power into the console at the Perko fuse block board. Somewhere on either this site, or CW, I remember previous discussions about sourcing one of these as a replacement. Twin Cities could also be a good source. I believe they are still made.
Joe Kriz	#17  Posted on 04/16/14 - 12:06 PM
Site Owner Personal Page Personal Album Photo Albums Project Albums Posts: 11434 Comments: 452 Joined: 03/18/05	We have that discussion here but the links are no longer any good. http://www.whalercentral.com/forum/vi...#post_5082 Yes, my 1986 also had the 50 amp circuit breaker in the starboard stern. My 1985 was one of the last groups of 1985 year models made as it was made in June of 1985. The 1985 year models seem to have been the last year with the circuit breaker in the console.
Tom W Clark	#18  Posted on 04/16/14 - 12:54 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 4280 Comments: 7 Joined: 09/30/05	So, do I understand that Whaler increased the size of the breaker when they moved it to the stern from 30 AMP to 50 AMP?
Finnegan	#19  Posted on 04/16/14 - 1:10 PM
Member Posts: 1926 Comments: 16 Joined: 05/02/08	Yes, Tom. Both of mine are all original and they say "50 amp" on them. I would imagine your Revenge has one of those too? Because both of my boats have 8 gauge primary wire, I have always assumed they used the 50 amp breakers on all of the second generation boats. Wouldn't the primary wire size determine that breaker rating, rather than expected current load of a given hull size? So far, I have never had one of mine trip. My 1979 Montauk did come with a 30 amp fuse, located in a fuse holder in the battery box. It came with 10 gauge primary wire. Perhaps the 1985 and earlier 18's only had 10 gauge primary wire, hence the 30 amp breaker?
Joe Kriz	#20  Posted on 04/16/14 - 1:25 PM
Site Owner Personal Page Personal Album Photo Albums Project Albums Posts: 11434 Comments: 452 Joined: 03/18/05	I remember my 1985 Outrage had the 50 amp breaker under the console. (I could be wrong) My breaker also never tripped when I owned the boat.