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| ritzyrags |
Posted on 08/26/13 - 3:17 AM
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Your boating season is probably one of the best in the continent Duf.
Dont lie
Dont Cheat
And dont give up.. |
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| Joe Kriz |
Posted on 08/26/13 - 2:44 PM
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duf,
Let us know if you need to raise the motor to "Two Holes Up".
Whaler Drives can vary but we are thinking you probably need to go up another hole.
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| Finnegan |
Posted on 08/26/13 - 3:34 PM
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On Whaler Drive 25's, using the recommended 28" on center engine spacing with 25" CR engines, twin engines should be mounted up in the 4th st of bolt holes AT LEAST, and with Mercs, in the 5th set (all the way up). A pair of Enertia props should handle that mounting height easily. Five holes up means the engines are mounted 3" above the "all the way down" position. On these boats, even a single engine can be mounted one hole up, so every bit of the additional 2.25" of height is needed with a vee hull like the 25 when installing twins.
Think of the notched transom 25. It takes a 25" single or 20" twins. That makes for a 5" difference, which is not even possible on a WD boat. The closer centerline spacing of the WD does help the situation slightly. Twin OMC's or Yamaha's have never performed as well as Mercurys on the 25 WD's because of their 4 hole mounting height limitation. Both of those manufacturers need to redesign their engine brackets with a five hole pattern.
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| Joe Kriz |
Posted on 08/26/13 - 3:37 PM
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Bolts in the 4th hole from the top is "3 Holes Up".
http://www.whalercentral.com/articles...cle_id=106
OMC and Yamaha can do that.
Larry,
You are complicating things.
Five holes up means the engines are mounted 3" above the "all the way down" position.
You cannot be mounted 5 holes up. That would be 4 holes up as the bolt is in the 5th hole from the top.
That is as high as a Merc can go, 4 holes up.
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0 <-- All the way down (bolt in first hole)
0
0
0
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0
0 <-- One Hole Up (bolt in second hole)
0
0
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0
0
0 <-- Two Holes Up (bolt in third hole)
0
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0
0
0
0 <-- Three Holes Up (or All the way Up for most engines) (bolt in fourth hole)
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Mercury motors and maybe some others have a 5 bolt hole pattern.
0
0
0
0
0 <-- Four Holes Up (Mercury motors have 5 bolt holes) (bolt in fifth hole)
Both of those manufacturers need to redesign their engine brackets with a five hole pattern.
I agree. I would like to see all motors have the 5 bolt hole pattern instead of just 4 on some of them.
Edited by Joe Kriz on 08/26/13 - 3:59 PM |
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| duf |
Posted on 08/26/13 - 7:28 PM
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i will supply a photo (or at least i'll take it and try to load it, see how well Joe trained me), but i'm at the second hole from the top, meaning, i should be down to the fifth hole, with the motor up at least 3 to 4 inches? So, from that, i guess my motors are slung way to low, and i'm sure are inhibiting my performance? Dang, if i'm doing 48 - 49 now, what will that do?
Duf
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| CES |
Posted on 08/27/13 - 6:49 AM
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duf wrote:
Will do Ritz and PDX, can shoot some with it out of the water no problem, its out now. Will continue with the pic's and hope to have some video's showing the boat getting up on plane with only one motor. I'll have to get with Joe to see how i can post that, as i think its a no, no.
Joe, come on down anytime, both CES and jvz have been here, and i will make you my baked beans!
Duf
I can vouch for the baked beans....second to none!
Cliff
1966 13' Sport with a 1993 40hp Yamaha 2 Smoker |
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| spuds |
Posted on 08/27/13 - 2:53 PM
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Boat looks great Duf.
Just when everyone up north is starting to think about wrapping up the boating season, we are looking forward to increased boating activities because the brutal heat is about over. But hey, it is a water sport, so what the heck? I still go out.
But from here on out to December, is some of the best boating on the Texas coast. Really looking forward to moderate temps and some great boating time.
Maybe we can make it down to CC this fall. I really like beans! zzzt-zzzt
1985 Outrage 18 |
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| duf |
Posted on 08/27/13 - 7:10 PM
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Bring it on Spuds, Whalers are always welcome!
Ok, i guess i'm good to go, here's what i have.
O
O
O
O < --- Bolt mounted here
O
So, in Joe's decription, i'm 3 holes up with only one hole left to adjust up.
More pictures coming showing same, but being on the lift, i could get directly behind it and the shot doesn't show the holes very well.
I have another shot of my 22 before i sold it in the lift, with the 25 in the water. Amazing shot, on how big the 25 is compared to the 25. I'll try to locate the original and put it on my personal page.
Duf
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| Tom W Clark |
Posted on 08/27/13 - 7:49 PM
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Twin 25" shaft length motors on a Whaler Drive equipped 25 should be mounted as high as they can go.
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| Joe Kriz |
Posted on 08/27/13 - 7:52 PM
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Tom,
Then we have a problem with some motors.
Some only can go "3 Holes Up".
In the case of the Mercury, it can go "4 Holes Up".
From what you are saying then, no one should buy any other brand of motor unless it has 5 mounting bolt hole positions as the others with only 4 holes wouldn't be setup properly no matter what they do.
Edited by Joe Kriz on 08/27/13 - 7:53 PM |
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| Tom W Clark |
Posted on 08/27/13 - 9:52 PM
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Joe -- I said no such thing. I said what I wrote.
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| Joe Kriz |
Posted on 08/28/13 - 1:55 AM
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Ok, let me rephrase that.
Mercury has more mounting holes than other motors.
Mounting all brands up as high as they can go, would Mercury be higher then the other brands?
I know WD models in the past had some slight differences.
In some catalogs, BW stated 20 inch shaft motors for twins. Later changing that to 25 inch.
Mike's Dad bought an Outrage 20 WD and was recommended to put on 20 inch shafts only to find out later the newer WD models needed the 25 inch shafts.
He then purchased 5 inch leg extensions for his motors.
I don't know what holes he eventually wound up mounting the Johnson motors but obviously may not have been as high as a Mercury can go.
Unless, all motors are the same if they are mounted all the way up.
I have never owned a WD so I can't speak from experience, just observation and reports from others here.
Seems Mercury would have a slight advantage if in fact they would be 3/4 of an inch higher then the other brands that couldn't go that high.
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| Tom W Clark |
Posted on 08/28/13 - 7:19 AM
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We have to remember that it is not actually the number of holes up the motor is mounted that counts, nor even the height of the A/V plate relative to the hull. What counts is the position of the A/V plate relative to the surface of the water at speed.
One might assume that a motor with five mounting holes can be mounted 3/4" higher than a motor with only four mounting holes, but that is not necessarily the case. There is no uniform vertical distance between the first motor mounting hole and the motor's A/V plate; it varies between manufacturers and between models within a given manufacturer's line-up.
However, regardless of al that, we know the Whaler Drive on the 20, 22 and 25 foot classic Whaler hulls is a slightly odd duck. It takes a single 25" shaft motor or twin 25" shaft motors. Normally, one uses a shorter shaft length when mounting twins on a deep V hull.
When you do mount twin 25" shaft length motors on say, an Outrage 25 Whaler Drive, you need the get those motors up high to make them work. 30 years ago, when the Whaler Drive was introduced, Whaler mounted twins three holes up. See page 38 of the 1988 Boston Whaler catalog for an example. This was back when motors were normally mounted on Whalers all the way down or maybe one hole up, and aluminum propellers were the norm with only a handful of stainless steel propellers available. So the three holes up mounting on the Whaler Drive was really very conservative by today's standards.
So if you have a motor with only four mounting holes, it would be nice to mount it higher than three holes up, but that is not an option. You certainly would never mount it less than three holes, which is as high as it can go.
The Mercurys on duf's boat have five mounting holes so he has the option of moving the motors up another set of holes, which he ought to do to take advantage of the improved mounting height. Again, four holes up is as high as those motors can go. They should not be mounted lower than that.
So, regardless of what brand of outboard you use on a Whaler Drive equipped 25, or how many motor mounting holes the brackets have, the motors should be mounted as high as they can go.
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| Joe Kriz |
Posted on 08/28/13 - 11:28 AM
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Tom W Clark wrote:
We have to remember that it is not actually the number of holes up the motor is mounted that counts, nor even the height of the A/V plate relative to the hull. What counts is the position of the A/V plate relative to the surface of the water at speed.
True.
I have often wondered what the actual distance to the A/V plate on the different motors actually is.
I guess we could figure that out.
Measure down from the top bolt hole to the top of the A/V plate on all motors.
That should tell us what the difference, if any, on the various motors.
If they were the same, then we should know that Mercury motors were capable of going one hole higher then the rest of the motors. (or somewhere in between)
I think I am trying to over-optimize and probably crossing over onto the Racing side of things were 1/4 or 1/2 a mile faster then the competition gives you the edge.
With our recreational boats, most of us aren't concerned about 1/4 or 1/2 a mile faster, just getting the best "Overall" performance and fuel economy we can without getting carried away.
I don't have any Mercury motors available to measure but I think I will measure my Evinrude from the top hole to the A/V plate just to know that distance.
Maybe trivial?
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| duf |
Posted on 08/29/13 - 2:01 PM
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So, the obvious question is, if i move my motors up an additional hole, what change will i see. Increased speed, better handling on plane, what"s the advantage?
Duf
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| ritzyrags |
Posted on 08/29/13 - 2:19 PM
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This is very interesting data here thanks to Tom for disclosing his experience.
I am presently about to remount my Merc 150 25" to my new jackplate
The answer to my specific choice of holes to attach may lie in the above comments.
http://www.whalercentral.com/showuser...to_id=1644
Excellent topic.
Dont lie
Dont Cheat
And dont give up.. |
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| Joe Kriz |
Posted on 08/29/13 - 5:26 PM
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duf wrote:
So, the obvious question is, if i move my motors up an additional hole, what change will i see. Increased speed, better handling on plane, what"s the advantage?
Duf
Duf,
The less of anything hanging in the water is going to give you less drag.
How much better will raising your motors 3/4 of an inch or one bolt hole on your Whaler Drive model?
I don't know.
Will it be too high? I don't know, but not according to Tom.
Because you already have your motors mounted and they aren't even broke in yet, I personally would leave them alone.
See what your performance and economy is after they are broken in.
Also view where the A/V plates are when running the boat.
If you see the A/V plates are still too much in the water, then you could move the motors up another bolt hole.
At that time, you could then compare your notes on your prior economy and let us know.
On a side note. My single motor is still too low. I need to raise it at least one more hole. Just haven't gotten around to it.
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| BillDemers |
Posted on 08/29/13 - 5:32 PM
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So when a boat is at speed and properly trimmed the a/v plate should be visible with a nice laminar flow around it and not so much spray ?
BillD
1999 Dauntless 18' - 135 Mercury Optimax |
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| BillDemers |
Posted on 08/29/13 - 5:34 PM
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I should have asked that question in another thread, huh?
BillD
1999 Dauntless 18' - 135 Mercury Optimax |
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| Joe Kriz |
Posted on 08/29/13 - 5:34 PM
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Bill,
Yes.
There is a video floating around that I need to locate.
It shows how the A/V plate(s) should look like when the motor height is correct.
EDIT:
Found the page.
Here they show a pair E-Tec's and some Verado's.
http://www.veradoclub.com/smf/index.p...opic=137.0
Edited by Joe Kriz on 08/29/13 - 5:39 PM |
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