|
Filling holes in transom
|
| modenacart |
Posted on 12/07/10 - 4:56 PM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 741
Comments:
4
Joined: 02/28/09
|
When I removed the engine, one of the holes was way out of round where they just drilled it bigger to make it fit the engine. I plan on filling the holes and redilling. I see that people recommend using wood plugs, why not just fill with long strand filler?
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety.
--Benjamin Franklin |
| |
|
|
| msparks378 |
Posted on 12/07/10 - 10:16 PM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 14
Comments:
0
Joined: 08/02/10
|
I don't think the long strand filler would give you the multidirectional strength you need for the transom. I like the idea of plugging the hole with a wood plug and then redrilling. I think I would coat the plug with MarineTex or expoxy resin before driving it into the old hole.
|
| |
|
|
| Ralph Iorio |
Posted on 12/08/10 - 3:45 AM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 86
Comments:
1
Joined: 06/30/10
|
Never had to refill anything larger than an old transducer screwhole, but always use that 2=part JB Weld epoxy. The stuff hardens like steel and is easy to re=tap for a screw...only problem is cosmetic in that it doesnt seem to be available in anything but gray.
1989 Montauk 17 w 1989 Johnson 90 |
| |
|
|
| captnickm |
Posted on 12/08/10 - 5:13 AM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 64
Comments:
0
Joined: 11/30/10
|
msparks378 wrote:
I don't think the long strand filler would give you the multidirectional strength you need for the transom. I like the idea of plugging the hole with a wood plug and then redrilling. I think I would coat the plug with MarineTex or expoxy resin before driving it into the old hole.
X2
Coat the wood plug in West System and it will be stronger than you will ever need it to be.
Nick - 19' Outrage II |
| |
|
|
| Gamalot |
Posted on 12/08/10 - 5:15 AM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 1086
Comments:
3
Joined: 06/21/10
|
Pay close attention to the moisture content of the internal wood! I had to fill lower transducer holes on my '74 and the internal wood was wet. Not much seems to adhere to wet wood but I did have decent results with Gorilla Glue that requires dampness to activate. I also used fiberglass dowels that I roughed up in the hopes that get coat will adhere to it better than some of the other ideas mentioned.
I have seen a few repairs of old holes with wood plugs and then top coated with gel coat. After a short time the holes were clearly evident as the wood swelled and popped the surface of the GC. Just my opinion here but I do hope the fiberglass dowels will be impervious to moisture swelling.
|
| |
|
|
| captnickm |
Posted on 12/08/10 - 6:03 AM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 64
Comments:
0
Joined: 11/30/10
|
Gamalot wrote:
Pay close attention to the moisture content of the internal wood! I had to fill lower transducer holes on my '74 and the internal wood was wet. Not much seems to adhere to wet wood but I did have decent results with Gorilla Glue that requires dampness to activate. I also used fiberglass dowels that I roughed up in the hopes that get coat will adhere to it better than some of the other ideas mentioned.
I have seen a few repairs of old holes with wood plugs and then top coated with gel coat. After a short time the holes were clearly evident as the wood swelled and popped the surface of the GC. Just my opinion here but I do hope the fiberglass dowels will be impervious to moisture swelling.
You brought up a very good point! The first thing that I did when I bought my whaler was drill small 3/16 holes in the transom and check the wood shaving for moisture. This is one of the biggest problems on old whalers. The motor puts a lot of pressure and tork on the transom and if it’s wet inside you need to fix it! You can be at a high risk of your transom cracking or even worse!
The way to fix it is to drill allot (25-50) of small 3/16 holes in the transom (inside the boat and on the exterior). Then you park the boat somewhere out of the weather and get a few heat lamps and put them right up to the transom of the boat. Not to close so you don’t damage the gel coat with the heat. Now you let the heat lamps sit on it for at least a week. The last boat I had took 2 weeks. It makes a great winter time project. The heat lamps will pull the moisture out of the wood. After a few days you can even see the water come out of the holes. After a week or so drill a few more holes and check for moisture. If the wood is dry enough for your liking then you can take the heat lamps away.
Next go get yourself some epoxy (I like West System) and mix it up and stick it into a syringe and cut the hole on the end big enough to where it will not fit into the 3/16 whole. You want it to overlap the hole on either side. Place the syringe over the hole and push hard on the end so that you are basically pressurizing the epoxy as it goes in the hole. It will fill any voids inside the transom. Some of the holes will take more than one syringe (I had one take 3!) After this your transom will be as strong as ever! Hope this helps anyone!
-Nick-
Nick - 19' Outrage II |
| |
|
|
| Derwd24 |
Posted on 12/08/10 - 8:41 AM
|
Member
Posts: 1607
Comments:
9
Joined: 05/09/07
|
Interesting approach Nick. Did you consider removiing the top of the transom, digging out the wood, and filling with Nida Bond or Seacast?
Dave - 1983 Outrage 22 |
| |
|
|
| Gamalot |
Posted on 12/08/10 - 9:49 AM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 1086
Comments:
3
Joined: 06/21/10
|
I have never seen the inside of a Montauk transom and I doubt many of us have. I suspect there is 2-3 thicknesses of marine ply that is covered with glass and gel coat on the outside but is in direct contact with the foam on the inside. I would think this wood was sealed at the factory. I am very doubtful that once this wood and the inside foam gets wet that you could ever get it dry and keep it dry. I just don't believe it to be in the realm of possibility unless you open the deck and allow it to fully dry in a controlled atmosphere for a good long while.
My approach is to deal with it as it is, try to dry it as best as possible and to fill the holes with something impervious to moisture with a glue that will set in a damp environment.
That's my story and I'm sticking with it.
I did drill a number of holes to drain my hull when I first got the boat. After sitting all summer long in 90 degree heat I still had moist wood when ever I drilled new holes. I don't think the wire tunnel is as well sealed as it should be and I am sure there were many other places for water to get between the glass and in to the foam and wood. My drain tube was shot, my CC had a number of missing screws and there were numerous holes where batteries, oil & fuel tanks, and bilge pumps had once been. I would venture a guess that all these older Whalers are wet inside to some degree.
|
| |
|
|
| Derwd24 |
Posted on 12/08/10 - 10:40 AM
|
Member
Posts: 1607
Comments:
9
Joined: 05/09/07
|
Gary, Take a look at this page below, a couple of good shots of a transom redo on a '72 17' Whaler:
http://metanmarine.com/Restorations/7...index.html
Dave - 1983 Outrage 22 |
| |
|
|
| captnickm |
Posted on 12/08/10 - 10:46 AM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 64
Comments:
0
Joined: 11/30/10
|
Derwd24 wrote:
Interesting approach Nick. Did you consider removiing the top of the transom, digging out the wood, and filling with Nida Bond or Seacast?
The whaler I have now did not have any moisture luckily! But the last boat I owned had lots of moisture in the transome. If the transome was in bad enough shape I would probably just remove the entire transome and build a new one.
But if its just a litle moisture in it I just drill the holes and fill with epoxy. It only takes a few mituts of work. The rest of the time is just the heat lamps.
Nick - 19' Outrage II |
| |
|
|
| captnickm |
Posted on 12/08/10 - 10:47 AM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 64
Comments:
0
Joined: 11/30/10
|
Gamalot wrote:
I have never seen the inside of a Montauk transom and I doubt many of us have. I suspect there is 2-3 thicknesses of marine ply that is covered with glass and gel coat on the outside but is in direct contact with the foam on the inside. I would think this wood was sealed at the factory. I am very doubtful that once this wood and the inside foam gets wet that you could ever get it dry and keep it dry. I just don't believe it to be in the realm of possibility unless you open the deck and allow it to fully dry in a controlled atmosphere for a good long while.
My approach is to deal with it as it is, try to dry it as best as possible and to fill the holes with something impervious to moisture with a glue that will set in a damp environment.
That's my story and I'm sticking with it.
I did drill a number of holes to drain my hull when I first got the boat. After sitting all summer long in 90 degree heat I still had moist wood when ever I drilled new holes. I don't think the wire tunnel is as well sealed as it should be and I am sure there were many other places for water to get between the glass and in to the foam and wood. My drain tube was shot, my CC had a number of missing screws and there were numerous holes where batteries, oil & fuel tanks, and bilge pumps had once been. I would venture a guess that all these older Whalers are wet inside to some degree.
You are totaly right. You will never gety all the moisture out. But I think every litle bit helps.
Edited by captnickm on 12/08/10 - 10:48 AM
Nick - 19' Outrage II |
| |
|
|
| Blake Whitney |
Posted on 12/08/10 - 11:26 AM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 113
Comments:
3
Joined: 12/19/06
|
A shipwright friend of mine indicated that it was very common proctice in big yachts...usually the big power pigs not sailboats, to drill a series of holes at the low points and then pressurize the hull...only a pound or two, to drive the water out. Of course he is probably talking about big gallons but the technique couuld be the same. I would assume that you would need to be veeeeery careful not to blow the hull apart and delaminate.
|
| |
|
|
| Gamalot |
Posted on 12/08/10 - 11:45 AM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 1086
Comments:
3
Joined: 06/21/10
|
Nice pics there Dave and I wish I could see the other side where the foam meets the wood.
I do think the real question still goes right to what glue will work best on moist wood and what material to use for the plug that will not swell as it gets damp.
I build Mission Oak furniture and all my joints are dowel pinned. Depending upon the time of year and the humidity in my home there are times when the dowels are flush with the surface of the wood and other times when they swell and are well above the surface. I am certain that in a marine environment any wood we might use to plug holes will be expanding and contracting at a much greater rate. I also do not believe that the West Systems Epoxies are meant to be used on damp wood such as what we may find inside our transoms. It would be a real shame to plug the holes and go through all the time and expense of re gel coating over the plugs only to have them pop right out once the moisture causes swelling which is sure to happen.
|
| |
|
|
| Finnegan |
Posted on 12/08/10 - 2:54 PM
|
Member
Posts: 1926
Comments:
16
Joined: 05/02/08
|
Getting back to the original, question, how to fill engine bolt transom holes. I have done several transoms where new holes are needed for engine(s) installation. The transom in this 19 Outrage originally had twin engines, and I had to fill 8 engine bolt holes.
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v42...an0006.jpg
In the case of the oblong hole, I would use a large enough drill to make if perfectly round again, whatever diameter.
Proceed as following:
1. drill holes to be filled clean, with correct sized dril bit, to make sure all old caulking, dirt, etc is gone. Then, using a countersink bit, 45 degree bevel the glass edges of the hole, so later you will get a rough, tapered edge to hold the resin filler and gelcoat topping. This will add about 3/16" to the overall diameter of the hole at the gelcoat surface.
2. I use teak plugs, which I either buy or cut myself, to the correct diameter of hole to be plugged. Depending on the thichness of wood they are cut from, it will take several, pre-sized in a stack to equal the thickness of the wood in the transom. Like Gamelot, I use polyurethane (Gorrilla) glue to install them to the same location as the plywood in the transom, usually about 1-1/2" thick on a 17. They should fit tightly, and I use a same size dowel to tap them in. Apply some glue to bond each peg togther also. This will insure complete integrity of the plywood in the transom, and teak is super water resistant and strong. DO NOT USE ANY TYPE OF A WOOD DOWEL, as the wood grain runs the wrong way and can pop your finished resin covering. Let dry for at least an hour, and then scrape or sand away any excess glue completely. You will now have plugged holes, but recessed to the thickness of the fiberglass skin, usually about 1-8" - 3/16" in thickness.
3. Using a putty knife, fill the holes flush with Evercoat #27 polyester resin. This is thick right out of the can, bonds to both the wood and the glass, and fills quite well. A second coat might be needed occasionally if you get a sag.
4. Sand filled holes flush using a block, then use a grinder ball bit in a drill to hollow out the surface, even into the adjacent gelcoat, about 1/16" deep at most. Leave all contact surfaces rough.
5. Skim on pre-blended gelcoat to the correct color, block sand with #220 first, and then hand/palm wet sand up throught the grades to #2000, and buff. If your match is good, the transom will literally look brand new, with original structural integrity. Never assume the Whaler pre-blended gelcoat will be a correct color match. It always has to be tinted for an exact match to your hull.
This system works so well, the you can even re-drill new holes partially cutting right into the new filling work, incase the holes were only slightly off. I have done this with no problem, and with no loss of transom integrity. The new work will not compress under the bolt washers.
Do not use Epoxy anywhere in this process, unless you are not planning to re-gelcoat.
All of this assumes you are working with a dry transom.
|
| |
|
|
| Blake Whitney |
Posted on 12/08/10 - 3:11 PM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 113
Comments:
3
Joined: 12/19/06
|
Wow Finnegan....that really explaines the process. Always believed that West ( Epoxy) was the hot ticket and I never understood why so many folks favored Gorilla Glue. Thanks for the report! I am just getting into a '66 16/17. Motor comes off over the holidays and there are unused holes. I am worried about the blind holes and really do not like the idea on a non through bolt. There are a set of higher holes right at the bottom of the splashwell not in use and silicone filled. I am thinking about drilling holes to match in the motor mount and using them again.
thanks for the notes!
|
| |
|
|
| Gamalot |
Posted on 12/08/10 - 3:54 PM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 1086
Comments:
3
Joined: 06/21/10
|
Excellent post Fin!
I do agree that Teak will be the very best wood to use for plugging if wood is your preference. Plugs come in a few different cuts and it might be important to discuss.
Take a board that is 1X6X8. This means 1 inch thick, (Actually 3/4" and called thickness. By 6 inches wide, (Actually 5.5 inches) and called Width and 8 feet long which should be a little over and called Length.
Wood expands and contracts differently on each of these axises! Even Teak has similar attributes when moisture is added to the equation.
For the purpose of this discussion the least amount of expansion and contraction would be with plugs cut from the end grain of the board. Wood does not get much longer or shorter in length but it sure does get thicker and wider when moisture is added.
If I were to be drilling my own plugs for the transom I would avoid drilling them from the face of a board and from the edge of the board but I would be OK with Teak plugs drilled from the end grain where the least movement occurs. Drilled plugs from the end grain will expand to form a very solid seal against the plywood and might not push out too much to pop your gel coat. Keep in mind that plywood is numerous layers of wood laid in different directions and we don't care about the matching of grains at the surface that will be covered. We do not want outward expansion to pop our gel coat coverings!
|
| |
|
|
| Ralph Iorio |
Posted on 12/09/10 - 4:22 AM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 86
Comments:
1
Joined: 06/30/10
|
When considering marine woods, take a look at one called "Ipe" (pronounced eepay). I was introduced to it by a local woodmill owner while seeking a teak board. The owner told me teak was going for around $30/board foot and that he had another, better, wood I should look at. It turns out that Ipe is ten times as dense as teak (specific gravity .85 to .97) and while Phillipine Mahogony has a bend tensile strength of 12500 pounds psi, Ipe boasts one approaching 26,000 pounds plus its guaranteed not to rot from any reason for 100 years and currently sells for less than $5/board foot. The Ipe tree is basically indigenous to the Amazon region of So. America and grows to heights of 140'. The grain and color are beautiful but its hardness can blunt sawblades and drill bits after a few uses. It also produces a non-toxic but annoyingly fine sawdust so a mask is essential...it cannot be nailed...must be drilled. I've now used it on several projects and am addicted. Regarding the Gorilla Glue, am I the only one bedeviled by the foam that develops shortly after the curing process begins? It's a great glue but the foam can be a booger to remove from deeply routed joints...Ralph
1989 Montauk 17 w 1989 Johnson 90 |
| |
|
|
| Gamalot |
Posted on 12/09/10 - 4:46 AM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 1086
Comments:
3
Joined: 06/21/10
|
I hate Gorilla Glue for that exact reason Ralph! It is messy and do not get it on your skin as it stains very bad.
On the other end I do find it to be a very strong glue and useful to us because it requires moisture to cure.
I tape all around where ever I use the stuff but as you mention it is very difficult to clean up.
|
| |
|
|
| modenacart |
Posted on 12/11/10 - 5:53 AM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 741
Comments:
4
Joined: 02/28/09
|
msparks378 wrote:
I don't think the long strand filler would give you the multidirectional strength you need for the transom. I like the idea of plugging the hole with a wood plug and then redrilling. I think I would coat the plug with MarineTex or expoxy resin before driving it into the old hole.
Why not, the strands are randomly orientated?
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety.
--Benjamin Franklin |
| |
|
|
| modenacart |
Posted on 12/11/10 - 5:55 AM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 741
Comments:
4
Joined: 02/28/09
|
Ralph Iorio wrote:
When considering marine woods, take a look at one called "Ipe" (pronounced eepay). I was introduced to it by a local woodmill owner while seeking a teak board. The owner told me teak was going for around $30/board foot and that he had another, better, wood I should look at. It turns out that Ipe is ten times as dense as teak (specific gravity .85 to .97) and while Phillipine Mahogony has a bend tensile strength of 12500 pounds psi, Ipe boasts one approaching 26,000 pounds plus its guaranteed not to rot from any reason for 100 years and currently sells for less than $5/board foot. The Ipe tree is basically indigenous to the Amazon region of So. America and grows to heights of 140'. The grain and color are beautiful but its hardness can blunt sawblades and drill bits after a few uses. It also produces a non-toxic but annoyingly fine sawdust so a mask is essential...it cannot be nailed...must be drilled. I've now used it on several projects and am addicted. Regarding the Gorilla Glue, am I the only one bedeviled by the foam that develops shortly after the curing process begins? It's a great glue but the foam can be a booger to remove from deeply routed joints...Ralph
I have a plug cutter. If I use wood, I will use locust, which I have laying around. It is far more rot resistant and far stronger than teak, but much heavier and much harder on your tools. I am not sure if the expansion rates are the same as teak, I doubt it.
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty or safety.
--Benjamin Franklin |
| |
|
