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Drain tube replacement disaster
Gamalot	#1  Posted on 07/07/10 - 4:20 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 1086 Comments: 3 Joined: 06/21/10	I followed the discussion threads here. I bought the flare tool from Sue at Twin Cities, Fantastic customer relations with her and all of her company! I bought the 3 foot section of tube and the O rings from McMaster. I also bought the 3M 5200. My drain tube from the inside wire tunnel to the O/S transom was gone and the length was just under 13 inches. I heated the tube on one end and did a very nice flare in the bench vice for the inside opening. The tool works very good. After inserting the flared tube from the inside to the O/S of the transom I noticed a perfect fit on the inside and a severe angle on the O/S. I took my measurements and called Twin Cities and spoke with Roger about the angle. He told me to use a 5/16th threaded rod so the flare tool could tip a bit. I heated the angled cut end and proceeded with the flaring. My recommendation is to forget even trying to flare an angled end! What I ended up with was a very poor flare where the O ring popped out from the top yet the bottom of the tube is fully flared as it should be with the bottom half of the O ring in place. In my attempt to get a better flare on the top of the O/S tube I ended up collapsing the inside of the tube because of the tilt. I now have to grind the tube off and pound it back out and try again. I am sure the tool will work great for the drain tubes that are straight like the one through the splash well. I seriously doubt I will get a water tight seal on the angled transom tube unless I go the route of PVC and glue. There is nothing wrong with the tool but it would need a very intricately machined offset to be able to flare such a steep angle. In plumbers terms I am a full bubble or more in angle over 1 foot in length. Actually it is a compound angle because the tube goes one way and the angle of the transom goes another. BW could step up with a fix for this and provide us with a two piece tube with the correct flares on each end and a glue joint in the middle with a male to female fit. I am sure they use some sort of pneumatic compression tool to install these at the factory and form a nice seal that is guaranteed to fail long before the boat is destined for the landfill. Gary Edited by Joe Kriz on 07/08/10 - 11:16 AM
Joe Kriz	#2  Posted on 07/07/10 - 4:26 PM
Site Owner Personal Page Personal Album Photo Albums Project Albums Posts: 11434 Comments: 452 Joined: 03/18/05	There are a few other tricks that I use. 1. Flare the one end before putting in... 2. Put the tube in and then use the flare tool on the outside keeping the flare straight. If the outside of the hull is angled, then stop when one side of the tube is against the hull. Take a ball peen hammer and finish the rest of the angle by hand.... Worked perfect for me every time I had an angle on the outside. Actually, it is not hard to flare using just the ball peen hammer but the tool gives it a great starting point. Practice on the tube you took out... Good Luck.. Edited by Joe Kriz on 07/07/10 - 4:29 PM
John Fyke	#3  Posted on 07/07/10 - 4:59 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 1307 Comments: 0 Joined: 09/06/06	I never use those drain tubes. I always epoxy Schedule 40 PVC. Never have to worry about it agian. John Fyke Re-Fit or Reef It 1979 15' Sport with Super Sport conversion and 70hp mercury.
Barryg	#4  Posted on 07/08/10 - 4:39 AM
Member Personal Page Posts: 242 Comments: 1 Joined: 04/01/08	Gary, try doing a search for Tom Clarke's air hammer technique. This is what I use and seems to have no problems with the angle. I would try to elaborate on it but he does it so well and also has pics .BG Edited by Barryg on 07/08/10 - 4:46 AM
Tom W Clark	#5  Posted on 07/08/10 - 6:12 AM
Member Personal Page Posts: 4280 Comments: 7 Joined: 09/30/05	I always epoxy Schedule 40 PVC. Never have to worry about it again. ...until the plastic becomes brittle with age, cracks or seperates from the glue. Don't search for Tom Clarke because nothing may come up. My name is Tom Clark. Odd angles can easily be accommodated with the right tools.
Gamalot	#6  Posted on 07/08/10 - 7:00 AM
Member Personal Page Posts: 1086 Comments: 3 Joined: 06/21/10	I just finished reading on both sites and am grinding one of my dies as we speak. Thank you Tom for your patience with me and many others and it is great to have your wisdom and experience to go by. I have just enough of the 3 foot brass tube left for one last effort and if this fails I will use PVC/epoxy. The funny part is if BW charges $85 to do this and I was near a BW dealer I could have saved a lot of cash and at least 8 hours on this project so far. Once I get the die ground down so it will swivel and cut the air chisel to fit I will go for the gold. Gary
Corey G	#7  Posted on 07/08/10 - 7:23 AM
Member Posts: 36 Comments: 0 Joined: 04/20/10	How does one know when its time to replace the drain tube in the splash well? 1989 22' Sentry 225 Yamaha SW
bottomfish	#8  Posted on 07/08/10 - 10:06 AM
Member Personal Page Project Albums Posts: 198 Comments: 32 Joined: 01/07/09	Gary, I replaced all 4 drain tubes during my Montauk project. It is definitly a learn as you go project. I read the above mentioned articles and did the project as described. I failed multiple times and have a pile of wrinkled tube ends to show for it. Finishing your difficult edges with a ball peen hammer as Joe mentions is something I did by necessity while doing my tubes and it really works well to finish all the way around. I also found to not be too aggressive with the pneumatic chisel. Lower pressure and a slow and steady approach worked well for me. I just cant get with the PVC and glue yet as glue can crack and let water intrude. Just my .02
Joe Kriz	#9  Posted on 07/08/10 - 10:46 AM
Site Owner Personal Page Personal Album Photo Albums Project Albums Posts: 11434 Comments: 452 Joined: 03/18/05	Tom Clark has the article about the air hammer method right here on WhalerCental. Photos and description can be found here. http://www.whalercentral.com/articles...icle_id=42 And the part information is located in the Part Photos link on the left sidebar under "Drain Tubes- Brass". http://www.whalercentral.com/photogal...hoto_id=54 Edited by Joe Kriz on 07/08/10 - 11:15 AM
John Fyke	#10  Posted on 07/08/10 - 3:13 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 1307 Comments: 0 Joined: 09/06/06	Tom W Clark wrote: ...until the plastic becomes brittle with age, cracks or seperates from the glue. Don't search for Tom Clarke because nothing may come up. My name is Tom Clark. Many people do it this way. The brass corrodes to. John Fyke Re-Fit or Reef It 1979 15' Sport with Super Sport conversion and 70hp mercury.
Gamalot	#11  Posted on 07/08/10 - 4:46 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 1086 Comments: 3 Joined: 06/21/10	Great point John F. I thought about how hard it would not be for BW to just install fiberglass tubes in the build process and all our problems might be solved. Maybe not though. If the FG tube breaks a seal or cracks from stress over the years the same situation might exist. I seriously doubt there is a fool proof or permanent fix for this short of plugging up the holes and letting a bilge pump move water out. Gary
Joe Kriz	#12  Posted on 07/08/10 - 4:49 PM
Site Owner Personal Page Personal Album Photo Albums Project Albums Posts: 11434 Comments: 452 Joined: 03/18/05	Have you seen this article here on WhalerCentral? http://www.whalercentral.com/articles...icle_id=94 This is basically the same type of drain tubes that Whaler starting using around 1996.
John Fyke	#13  Posted on 07/08/10 - 5:00 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 1307 Comments: 0 Joined: 09/06/06	Joe Kriz wrote: Have you seen this article here on WhalerCentral? http://www.whalercentral.com/articles...icle_id=94 This is basically the same type of drain tubes that Whaler starting using around 1996. Wow, that looks easy enough.. John Fyke Re-Fit or Reef It 1979 15' Sport with Super Sport conversion and 70hp mercury.
Gamalot	#14  Posted on 07/08/10 - 5:51 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 1086 Comments: 3 Joined: 06/21/10	Joe Kriz wrote: Have you seen this article here on WhalerCentral? http://www.whalercentral.com/articles...icle_id=94 This is basically the same type of drain tubes that Whaler starting using around 1996. I saw the article and consider it "PURE GARBAGE"! If they cannot come up with an angled end cap to match the transom + drain tube angles then we end up with a bigger gap and have to rely upon the 4200 or 5200 to make the seal. For all these PVC tubes are worth I would opt for a 2 piece brass tube that was factory flared to the correct angles and compression fitted in the middle like an exhaust system. The 4200 or 5200 could at least provide a tight seal in as tiny a gap as this might leave. PVC would work fine if they offset the inside face of the end caps to match our hulls rather than leave them square and end up with as much as a 3/8 -5/8th inch gap at the bottom. I have come to expect junk like this from China but not from a company as solid and reputable as BW! Gary
Joe Kriz	#15  Posted on 07/08/10 - 6:24 PM
Site Owner Personal Page Personal Album Photo Albums Project Albums Posts: 11434 Comments: 452 Joined: 03/18/05	Let me get this straight.... You think the article is "PURE GARBAGE"... ??? These types of drain tubes are made for straight 90º at both ends. Most likely the newer Whalers accommodate this in the hull.. I think you may be barking up the wrong tree here.... Whaler did what they did and it worked well. It also works well for me the way I explained it to you in my first post above. Maybe your assumption to take it to a Whaler dealer would have been much easier and cheaper for you. I think we can all see that you are frustrated. You might still consider this. If you lived closer, or would like to bring the boat to me, I would be more than happy to install them for you for FREE.... Myself, I would definitely consider putting in the new style PVC drain tubes if they fit properly. If not, I would do them old school style using the brass tubes and a ball peen hammer.
John Fyke	#16  Posted on 07/08/10 - 6:45 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 1307 Comments: 0 Joined: 09/06/06	Gary, look in my project photos. John Fyke Re-Fit or Reef It 1979 15' Sport with Super Sport conversion and 70hp mercury.
Gamalot	#17  Posted on 07/09/10 - 3:33 AM
Member Personal Page Posts: 1086 Comments: 3 Joined: 06/21/10	Sorry you took my statement wrong Joe. The article is perfectly fine but these square PVC tubes are not a solution for those of us with older hulls at odd angles. Frustration certainly got a good part of me but I also got the job done to my own satisfaction and I am rather picky. I had to buy a tool and then reshape it to do the angles and in the end the info I got here and at CW got me through. PVC may well be a good solution if BW contracted with an injection molder to make the end caps with an angled inside face so it would sit flush to the slanted transom and make a good seal. There are times in my carpentry business where I have to use caulk to hide the flaws and fill in the gaps but I sure don't want them under the water line on my boat. Gary
Tom W Clark	#18  Posted on 07/09/10 - 5:53 AM
Member Personal Page Posts: 4280 Comments: 7 Joined: 09/30/05	Ironically, the plastic two piece drain tubes do not fit the new Whalers very either. I have seen them installed from the factory with gaps up to 3/8". They were designs not to be a superior alternative to formed bass, but a less expensive. less laborious alternative to formed brass. For all the endless talk about alternatives to the brass drain tubes, I have yet to see anybody come up with anything as good.
Josey Whaler	#19  Posted on 07/09/10 - 6:30 AM
Member Posts: 77 Comments: 1 Joined: 05/28/08	With some very basic carpentry skills, you can fashion your own drain tubes from plumbing materials found at Home Depot. I helped a friend replace all his thru-hulls last year with excellent results. For the sump wells, here is what we did. -Remove existing brass tubes. -Select the PVC pipe of your choice-we used 1" water supply as the inside diameter was precisely the width we needed for the corresponding plug to fit. -We then drilled out the hole in the hull (and foam core) to have 1/4" air space around the outside diameter of the PVC tube-a hole about 1 1/2" diameter. We DID NOT carry this hole through the bottom outer hull. The hole in the outer hull was approximately 1 1/4"-exactly the outside diameter of the PVC tube. -We then wrapped a single layer of wax paper tightly around a rough length of the PVC and inserted it into the thru-hull. Then, the air-space was filled with West System epoxy and left to cure. Once cured, the PVC pipe slid right out and the epoxy formed a perfect diameter hole while completely sealing the foam core from any possible water intrusion. The wax paper was pulled free as the epoxy did not bond to it. -From there, you can cut your own pipe flange from a PVC fitting at the appropriate angle, in this case the angle was about 20 degrees to correspond with the boats deadrise at that point. This (Epoxy seal) technique may not work well on horizontal thru-hull replacements though. However, fashioning you own PVC angled flanges to fit your boats transom angle from PVC pipe fittings is not difficult at all.
JohnnyCW	#20  Posted on 07/09/10 - 6:59 AM
Member Posts: 684 Comments: 0 Joined: 08/16/09	Something to keep in mind... After personally testing a variety of adhesives including 5200, 4200, and West Systems epoxy, I discovered none of it works well with PVC. It will literally peel right off as if the PVC has some sort of release agent. Even when the PVC pipe was scuffed well with 100 grit sandpaper. After my own testing experience, I would never trust trying to seal plumbing PVC to a hull below the water line.