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Re-Power 22 Guardian
ecpman	#1  Posted on 07/06/10 - 3:26 PM
Member Posts: 2 Comments: 0 Joined: 07/06/10	I have a 1994 22 Guardian i am in the process of restoring. I am leaning toward powering with twin F150 yamaha's. Does anyone have experience with running a 22 Guardian with twin 150's? What Props would you use? Pro's and Con's are appreciated. Edited by Joe Kriz on 07/07/10 - 11:00 AM
Joe Kriz	#2  Posted on 07/06/10 - 3:36 PM
Site Owner Personal Page Personal Album Photo Albums Project Albums Posts: 11434 Comments: 452 Joined: 03/18/05	I moved this out of the "General" forum and into the "Boats" forum where it belongs. We also have "Current Engine Choices" in our article section. http://www.whalercentral.com/articles...p?cat_id=4 I believe the MAX HP is 240 for the 22' Guardian. At least in the 1988 catalog.... If you overpower, that is between you and your insurance company.... Most reputable boat outfits will not rig your boat above the recommended max power otherwise they could be responsible for any injuries. WhalerCentral will never recommend anyone to overpower their boats. We recommend sticking to what Boston Whaler recommends. If going with twins, we would recommend twin 115 hp... We have the Guardian information in our Downloads section. This is for a 1980's Guardian but the 1988 is the same. It is also most likely the same for your 1990. http://www.whalercentral.com/download...?cat_id=14 Edited by Joe Kriz on 07/06/10 - 3:49 PM
Jeff	#3  Posted on 07/06/10 - 5:05 PM
Member Posts: 1987 Comments: 34 Joined: 04/02/05	Not all 22' guardians were rated for only 240hp. There was an option for an upgraded transom with a 300hp rating. We have twin Mercury XR6 2.5 Liter 150's on our Guardian. They weigh in at just under 400 lbs a piece if I remember correctly. Personally I feel it is powered correctly for the hull. With the added weight of the construction and if we are full of the 129 gallons of fuel it takes 150hp to adequately get the boat on plane. If you had twins and lost a motor a single 115 would likely not plane off a hull like ours. Even a single 130 might struggle to get the job done. We are turning a set of four blade Turbo props at a 14.25" x 17p size. The boat rockets on plane and holds strong in all sea conditions. Even when you are running on plane these prop provide outstanding acceleration if you drop the throttles. I can not find the test data from the props but, I seem to remember the boat typically cruises in the 33-35 mph range with a top end just over 50. Here is the thing, twins on a guardian are great unless you spend a lot of time trolling in heavy seas. We luckily have a full width splash gate on our transom which helps to keep the green water out of the cockpit...for the most part. If you do not have this gate I would recommend finding or making one if you rig with twins and troll a lot. With twin F150s your stern will even sit lower than what we have and that should cause you some concern. If you want twins I would recommend you not consider the Yamaha F150 which are 476lbs and consider looking at the E-Tec's which are 418lbs and save some weight. Edited by Jeff on 07/06/10 - 5:26 PM 1993 23' Walkaround Whaler Drive
JohnnyCW	#4  Posted on 07/06/10 - 6:08 PM
Member Posts: 684 Comments: 0 Joined: 08/16/09	From one of our Guardian 22's at work... [img]http://www.whalercentral.com/images/ppimages/14917/DSCsm.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.whalercentral.com/images/ppimages/14917/DSC00465.JPG[/img] [img]http://www.whalercentral.com/images/ppimages/14917/TFR_guardian_22.jpg[/img] Its running twin Merc 115's and moves quite well with four people and dive equipment on-board.
Joe Kriz	#5  Posted on 07/06/10 - 6:23 PM
Site Owner Personal Page Personal Album Photo Albums Project Albums Posts: 11434 Comments: 452 Joined: 03/18/05	Jeff, Please enlighten us on what year Guardian you are talking about as you don't list the year..... And, if you can, please show us these different Guardian specifications directly from Boston Whaler.... I also want to let everyone know that the photos JohnnyWC is showing in his post are located and hosted on WhalerCentral.com.... they are NOT hosted on any other outside source... Thanks Johnny....
Jeff	#6  Posted on 07/06/10 - 6:59 PM
Member Posts: 1987 Comments: 34 Joined: 04/02/05	Joe our guardian is a 1989. For the options on the transom reinforcement on Guardians please refer back to Tom Clark's CD set and page 11 of the 1985 Commercial Accessory list for the specifics. As noted: G5-9120-00 Transom Reinforcement Package For installation when engines above the maximum hp are installed. For 18' - 25 Boats. Includes 8 layers of addition fiberglass plus reinforcing rods. Available only for certified law enforcement/military applications. $2295 You can also see images of the 22 Guardians with this option on page 6 of both the 1987 and 1988 Commercial products catalog. As stated this option was only installed on Vessels Whaler was selling to government agencies for specific uses. It is rarer to find this option but, I have seen a couple others out there. The transom layout is completely different on these hulls from the standard layout. It includes a trapezoidal well with a large bulkhead running the width of the transom. I have NEVER seen a Guardian outfitted with this option that did not have the full width splash gate door. Hope that helps to locate the official info you were looking for. Jeff BTW I have tons pf images of the boat but, there are far too many to post in a personal page to really tell the story. They are hosted on my personal photo site though. Edited by Jeff on 07/06/10 - 8:04 PM 1993 23' Walkaround Whaler Drive
Joe Kriz	#7  Posted on 07/06/10 - 8:07 PM
Site Owner Personal Page Personal Album Photo Albums Project Albums Posts: 11434 Comments: 452 Joined: 03/18/05	Thanks Jeff. I am familiar with the Boston Whaler Catalogs. This is something very special and as you mention, not many, if anyone else but your father, has that option on their personal Guardian. We can therefore assume that ecpman does not have this option nor anyone else on this site. To add this option now would be out of the question if the original cost $2295.... unless someone has deep pockets.... 300 HP on a 22' Outrage or Guardian is overpowering the boat unless they might have the .00001 % of boats with the upgraded transom...
Doug V	#8  Posted on 07/06/10 - 8:18 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 340 Comments: 3 Joined: 09/21/05	Jeff, Sorry, but I have to say it again- that is one awesone 22 your dad has! Doug Vazquez
Jeff	#9  Posted on 07/06/10 - 8:44 PM
Member Posts: 1987 Comments: 34 Joined: 04/02/05	Joe, I know you know about Tom's catalogs but, you asked for specific citations of the information by Whaler. Anyway, you know the saying about assuming....Actually rarer is not .00001 % more around 10% to maybe 15% of the ones I see pop up for sale on GSA and elsewhere. Here are images with the details to look for for this option. The sure tell tale on the all the classics with the rounded cornered (in rear view of the vessel) notched transom is a bulkhead which extends flat from the trapezoidal shallow splashwell forward and under the full width splashgate. The other is a single thru-hull in the center of the transom going from the outside of transom into the shallow splashwell. I uploaded the images to my google sites page. In those images the white topped box inside the cockpit in front of the splashwell was built by the last government agency that owned the boat. It houses the oil tanks. If you would like these detailed images I would glad to provide them to the site for hosting in an article if you wish. To the point of overpowering, the Coast Guard regulations stipulate the law only in regards to vessels 20' or less. That said, there may be localized laws that bar against overpowering any vessel. All of the local outboard shops I have asked this question of overpowering (4 of them) all stated that, So long as the vessel is over 20' they would rig as the owner requested (within reason). Regardless of what the manufacture's plate stated. Many have run their overpowed vessels for years without tickets nor incidents with the Coast Guard and have them fully insured as powered. Look at Larry. He has had twin 115's on his Standard 18 Outrage for almost 25 years and currently has it powered with twin 90's (rated for 150hp). Now his 21 Outrage is powered with those twin 115's thus making that vessel overpowered now. I do not think he has ever run into trouble in any of his outings in the Great Lakes nor the Florida on Gulf coast waters. In fact, I personally have never seen nor heard of anyone having this type of citation given to them for powering beyond the capacity plate. For myself, I do not see the question in regards to horsepower but, weight on the transom. Can it be done? Yes, I believe it can. I have seen 2 22' standard Outrages with twin 150 E-Tecs. The rest is up to the owner and outboard shop selling the motors. Personally I do not think twin 150's on a standard Guardian is reckless by any means. But, that is just me. - Thanks Doug. As stated, if you make to Michigan you are always welcome for a ride. I will be spending all next week with her while on vacation and are so looking forward to it. I really need to feel those throttles in my hand again. Edited by Jeff on 07/06/10 - 9:05 PM 1993 23' Walkaround Whaler Drive
Joe Kriz	#10  Posted on 07/06/10 - 9:19 PM
Site Owner Personal Page Personal Album Photo Albums Project Albums Posts: 11434 Comments: 452 Joined: 03/18/05	Unfortunately, we can't go on Personal Opinions here as to what a a person thinks others should re-power their boat with. The team here at WhalerCenrtal has to go on real world information by Boston Whaler. And, due to regulations and liability, we can not advise anyone to overpower either. Everyone has an opinion, but as you know, everyone also uses toilet paper too. 10 to 15% is apparently your assumption and not factual... For the record and according to Boston Whaler, the majority of Outrage 22's and Guardian 22's have a max power rating of 240 HP.... If the Capacity Plate states Max HP at 240, then that is the Max HP no matter if they perform the transom upgrade or not. If the Capacity Plate states Max HP at 300, then that is the Max HP.... So, for this thread, and for ecpman, the team here at WhalerCentral wants to make it perfectly clear, that we do not recommend overpowering. Even if ecpman, wants to try and spend the money to upgrade his transom, and then possibly having to get it Coast Guard approved depending on his state regulations, we are staying with the normal Boston Whaler recommendations.... 240 HP maximum on the transom of the standard Guardian 22'.... If anyone wants to go beyond the specifications set by Boston Whaler for their particular model, then that is entirely up to them. And Last, go by the Capacity Plate on your boat. It is there for a reason.
JohnnyCW	#11  Posted on 07/06/10 - 9:23 PM
Member Posts: 684 Comments: 0 Joined: 08/16/09	The transom on that older Guardian looks a bit lower than the Guardians we have at work. I know its rated for 300hp but were the older boats rated for 240hp also notched that low? Maybe they're the same and the viewpoint of the pics just makes it look lower? With 300hp it must really fly. With quite a load I've never felt our 22's underpowered with the twin 115's.
Jeff	#12  Posted on 07/06/10 - 10:02 PM
Member Posts: 1987 Comments: 34 Joined: 04/02/05	Joe, I realize where your (the website's) letter of the law statement comes from. One thing to realize though is in my personal travels I have only seen 1 out of hundreds of government used Guardian hulls that still had a capacity plate. Johnny's images makes that 2 now. Ours does not currently have, nor has any remnants of a plate existing. The best resource for how a specific Guardian Hull was built and how it was rated may be Chuck Bennett though, he admittedly stated he does not have every single detail on these government / commercial production hulls. Johnny, That is at least how our Guardian was built. There was an option I believe in later years for a raised transom to run 25" shaft motors. We have 20" shafts on ours. I do wish the transom was higher though. 1993 23' Walkaround Whaler Drive
Alan Gracewski	#13  Posted on 07/06/10 - 10:21 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 110 Comments: 1 Joined: 01/25/10	ECPMAN: fyi, I bought a 1990 Revenge 22 this spring and recently got her fixed up and sea trialed. It has twin Johnson 120's on it. My GPS had us going 37 knots in salt water with 4 people aboard and half a tank of fuel. In my opinion, 240 horsepower is plenty for fishing, cruising and even water skiing! Plus, with V4 engines, there is less weight aft (mine is a straight transom...no Whaler Drive). I am some distance from the boat so I can't give you the prop data. Hope this is helpful. Al
Jeff	#14  Posted on 07/06/10 - 11:09 PM
Member Posts: 1987 Comments: 34 Joined: 04/02/05	Al, Your 22 Revenge W/T in it's standard configuration is 2350lbs. A standard guardian bare hull is 2550lbs starting out. Throw in a Heavy duty console, large fuel tank, other heavy duty options and a Guardian and quickly add up to be a much heavier boat than a standard 22 Revenge W/T. Our guardian weighs in at 5640lbs with full fuel and no trailer. Do you happen know your weight on your Revenge as it is currently rigged? Johnny, If found it. The option for a 30" transom (25" shaft twins) is option # G5-9121-00. I found it first on page 36 of the 1987 Commercial Products catalog in Optional Accessories. Looking at your image the fire boat seems to have this option. The biggest reason for making the shift to a 30" transom is to be able to run counter rotation on twin engines. 1993 23' Walkaround Whaler Drive
Joe Kriz	#15  Posted on 07/06/10 - 11:10 PM
Site Owner Personal Page Personal Album Photo Albums Project Albums Posts: 11434 Comments: 452 Joined: 03/18/05	There's a 1991 Guardian 22' in the personal page section that looks like it has the full width splash gate... http://www.whalercentral.com//infusio...r_id=13065 Can't tell what size the engines are as they are cloaked Darth Vader style. We also have a member with the 30 inch transom on his 1996 Guardian 22' listed in the boat info section. Scroll down to his name = peska671 http://www.whalercentral.com/boat_lis...st/bl1.php Edited by Joe Kriz on 07/06/10 - 11:19 PM
MW	#16  Posted on 07/07/10 - 2:47 AM
Member Personal Page Posts: 1827 Comments: 10 Joined: 01/08/06	I do remember seeing "Marine" enforcement Whalers that were 22' long a few years ago near me. They had HUGE 300 HP V8's on the back to catch the "Muscle" boats leaving the dockside bars here. They had a radar arch on the back. A few years ago they switched to smaller engines, I asked around and the "Scuttle Butt" was that the hull's were over powered and they could not insure the boats, again this was "Scuttle butt" at the gas dock, and NOT an official explanation. Interesting thread though.. Matt
ecpman	#17  Posted on 07/07/10 - 7:42 AM
Member Posts: 2 Comments: 0 Joined: 07/06/10	Guys, Thanks for all the information and insite. The hull is a 1994 not 1990 as previously stated. Serial#GWC55270D494 Is there anyway to find out the history of this boat. I left Jamie with BW a voice mail this morning, hopefully I will hear back. I want to power with 4-strokes & more HP than 115's, but certanly do not want t make a mistake with overpowering. Edited by Joe Kriz on 07/07/10 - 10:59 AM
mattgeiger	#18  Posted on 07/07/10 - 12:50 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 310 Comments: 2 Joined: 02/22/07	I test drove an Outrage 22 with twin Yamaha 150 2-strokes. The boat DID have a Whaler Drive bracket though, and the plate did say 300hp. The owner bought the boat new and swapped off twin 130s after a year, stating it didn't have enough power. Even with a rough hull, wet decks and who knows how much wet foam and 900 hours on the engines it was an absolute pleasure to launch out of the hole as well as accelerate from 30-50 in a 2' chop. Cape Dory 28 Hobie 20 Miracle A Class Catamaran
Joe Kriz	#19  Posted on 07/07/10 - 3:26 PM
Site Owner Personal Page Personal Album Photo Albums Project Albums Posts: 11434 Comments: 452 Joined: 03/18/05	The Whaler Drive models had more max rated HP due to the floatation in the Whaler Drive. Compare these 2 Capacity plates for the different 22' models. 1. 22' Standard transom http://www.whalercentral.com/photogal...photo_id=4 2. 22' with Whaler Drive http://www.whalercentral.com/photogal...photo_id=5
Josey Whaler	#20  Posted on 07/07/10 - 4:29 PM
Member Posts: 77 Comments: 1 Joined: 05/28/08	ecpman wrote: Guys, Thanks for all the information and insite. The hull is a 1994 not 1990 as previously stated. Serial#GWC55270D494 Is there anyway to find out the history of this boat. I left Jamie with BW a voice mail this morning, hopefully I will hear back. I want to power with 4-strokes & more HP than 115's, but certanly do not want t make a mistake with overpowering. Achieving a re-power on a 1994 22' Guardian, with 4-stroke power, higher than twin 115's, and not over-power (at least based on Whaler recommendations) would be an impossible task since the outboard rating is only 240 HP. As Jeff has eluded to, the issue is not horse-power, but rather weight when considering twin engine installations. The fact that the 22' Guardian is available with a 330 HP stern drive is evidence of this . Absent the Whaler-Drive option, the weight of twin 150 HP 4-strokes is going to be problematic. If you want more HP than twin 115's and still remain compliant with the recommended horsepower application from Whaler, I would consider twin Evinrude E-TEC 115 H.O.'s. These are basically Evinrudes 130 HP engine with a 115 HP cowl. They weigh just over 20 lbs more than the standard 115's and will provide increased performance. However, I do not believe the 115 H.O. is available with a counter-rotating gearcase Edited by Josey Whaler on 07/07/10 - 4:33 PM