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I have a 1986 outrage and pull it with a 1999 chevy z71 5.3. Probably about 6500-7000. with a fully loaded with trailer. It struggles to go over 60 with a light foot. I want a truck that can pull it with no worries but not a f350. Should I go with f150 5.4, dodge 5.7, chevy 6.0 or diesel? I pull the boat 100 miles round trip about 80 times a years on a flat road. When Im not pulling the boat Im driving 20 miles round trip 180 days a year.

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I have 2 Dodge diesels. Both one tons, one 4 wheel drive, one rear wheel drive. A very talented mechanic/machinist recommended them to me and I am so happy I listened. One is a 1996 and the other is a 1998 1/2 (the 1998 series came with two different motors). They both have the 12 valve commercial Cummings diesel motor. The last time they put the mechanical non computerized engine in a pick up. They also have the comfortable cab and suspension (pre 1994 body/suspension style pretty stiff). I highly recommend the 1994 to 1998 Dodge diesel with the 12 valve motor. Fellows know about this truck so they hold a decent resale value. Clean ones in the $10,000 + range around here (Northern CA). Do not let 200,000 miles scare you. My first one had 450,000 miles on it, since sold. 3/4 ton will be more than enough truck with a comfortable ride.
Garris

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Are you planning to purchase a new vehicle, or used?

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I would say the minimum truck for that boat would be a 3/4 ton. Especially as much as you get out on the road with the boat. An F-150 would probably work, but the running gear would be near maximum. Being at the maximum capacity also means that wear and tear will be maximum as well.

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Any late model 1/2 ton pickup, properly equipped, should handle your towing task well. I believe displacement is important for longevity when performing heavy duty tasks.

My personal preference is the Ram 1500 with the 5.7 Hemi engine and towing package. I have a 2014 and get right at 18 MPG overall mileage. Twenty MPG on the Interstate at 70 MPH is routine. I've never checked towing mileage specifically but suspect it is around 18 MPG. My tows are all on flat terrain with a lighter load than you anticipate (190 Montauk w/Verado). The truck is very comfortable with a nice ride which makes day to day driving very enjoyable. Care when towing is necessary because it is so easy to forget you have a load behind you. Drive one.

Due to the very high purchase and long term maintenance costs of diesels I can't recommend them any more except for extreme towing demands. I drove diesels exclusively for several years towing boats and heavy RVs but when the RVs went away gasoline power was on the horizon for me.

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I want to buy used. Looking in at 150k -250k miles. Probably stick under 10k

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My 2006 Tundra does a nice job pulling my Outrage 25 WhalerDrive on a dual axle trailer.

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If one chooses a Tundra, it should be 2007 or newer with the 5.7L engine. Tundras are geared for towing (only one axle ratio available)... Just dont expect anything over 20mpg empty.

PS - the above notes..."for towing a 25". I have a 2011 with the 4.6L. Good truck.

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Copy. Then Garris's recommendation above sounds like a good way to go.

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I want to echo Garris' comments. I have a 1998 Dodge 2500 with the Cummins diesel that he mentions. It was the last pre electronic diesel and the injection pump is second to none. I have converted this diesel to run on vegetable oil / bio diesel and runs like a top and hauls my 20 foot outrage without any problems. I was fortunate to find a 2500 crew cab with suicide doors. And regrading Butch' s comments on high initial cost of diesels, they do have a high resale or trade in value.
Joe

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I have a 6.7L 400HP/400ft/lb torque diesel F350 and, I agree it might be overkill for your needs, but if you don't want to know your boat is back there and feel the drag, it would be the best option. I have the middle drive axle ratio in this truck, there are 3 different ratios available in the F350. It is not the lowest ratio available, (which allows more power but less top end speed, and thus reduces fuel economy), and it is not the highest ratio available either. This drive axle ratio is combined with the lowest ratio 6 speed automatic transmission included with a HD towing package.

I also have a F150 with the 302ci (5L fuel injected 365HP) engine that I think would probably be satisfactory in your application. I have used it several times to pull HD 30' gooseneck hitch flatbeds around for relocation around both the ranch and laydown yards, but I have never used that truck for these purposes at highway speeds. The above described F150 does fantastic at highway speeds with our Outage 18.
You may notice that there is only a 40 HP engine difference between the 2 pickups I am discussing here, but the GVWR of these 2 trucks is over 100% in difference.
You should not get overly concerned with GVWR on your selection once you determine that this rating is high enough to tow the weight of your boat down the highway. It makes no difference whether it is a 1/2, 3/4, or 1 ton chassis in any way other than comfortable ride. Generally speaking across ALL brands of pickups the ride will be harder as the GVWR increases in rating. Since you have already determined that your boat weighs between 6500-7000 lbs, you need to find a pickup that has a max towing capacity range to match this load. The F-150 has a max towing capacity in 2015 of 12200 lbs. Since you are looking to buy used, you would have to find out what the max towing capacity of the particular truck you are looking at actually has, as this MTC has varied through the years, and also varies between makes as well as models within the same make.

Now, lets talk about what is REALLY important to your stated needs.

Both of the pickups I talk about here have 4 wheel drive and towing packages. There are several rear end and transmission ratios available for both the F150 and F350 pickups. You want to have pulling power at highway speeds. It does not matter what brand of truck you pick, the engine/transmission/rear end ratio all WORK TOGETHER to provide you with this requirement. 2/3 of what you desire to achieve with your pickup pulling your boat has to do with components that are not being discussed in this thread yet.
The GVWR and engine in your truck does not make your truck do what you want it do ALONE. You must consider drive axle ratio and transmission ratio in COMBINATION with the engine HP in order to achieve your towing goal of less engine strain at highway speeds.

You don't NEED a 1 ton truck, or a diesel engine, to pull your Outrage 25, unless the brand you choose requires that high of GVWR and engine type to provide you with the towing capacity you require for that boat. I don't know about all the off-brands mentioned in this thread, but I know that both Ford and Chevy certainly do currently make trucks with almost 2 times the towing capacity you need, AT SPEED, in their 1/2 ton models that DO NOT HAVE DIESEL POWER. Ford even makes a V6 Turbo engine they call ecoboost that provides almost as much horsepower as that beast in my F350!
My Dad has and uses one of these F150 Ecoboost right now, and he is selling his F-250 diesel because he doesn't use it anymore since that F-150 Ecoboost came on the scene.
It is my understanding that one member here, Finnegan, uses an old Cadillac to pull his Outrage 25, (and has posted great performance reports all over the internet), using this tow vehicle on fairly LONG trips compared to your needs.

I suggest that you hook up your boat to whatever pickup/tow vehicle you consider and test drive with it attached before you buy. You can't go wrong with that method, and it eliminates the BS you will get if you try to make your decision based on other peoples preferences which seem to almost exclusively match whatever they have invested in :) Good Luck in your quest :)

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Given your budget restriction a newer truck is probably out of the picture.

I recommend you investigate the possibility of a differential final drive gear ratio change. Possibly changing to a 4.10 or similar gear set would provide your existing truck with the added bottom end to make it a satisfactory tow vehicle. That would certainly be your least cost option.

Perhaps someone with a similar truck to yours but with a lower ratio will chime in. If this option interests you let us know your trucks final drive ratio.

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Very sensible comment. The truck you have CAN be made to accomplish your goals, as long as you are happy with the rest of the truck as it is. Lowering the drive axle ratio will increase fuel consumption.

Another thing you should look into is your truck's ECM programming. Your 1999 chevy has one, and it is programmable. There are many aftermarket programmers that are available, and there are many shops right around you that specialize in this type of engine/transmission ratio tuning for your current truck. Depending on the severity of the problem you are having, this might just be all you will need to do. That Chevy 350 is a real workhorse. :) I had a 1999 Chevy Tahoe with that engine, 280 or 285HP, I can't remember, that went 110000 miles before I got rid of it. I used it to tow the Outrage 18, and after modifying the program in the ECM, it was fine. The Fords now have a switchable programming feature that is included as "Tow/Haul" mode that only changes the programming of the ECM when engaged, and it does make a significant difference when activated while towing.

If you must have a new-to-you truck due to factors unrelated to pulling your boat, just take your boat with you when you go to look at potential replacements, hook it up to the candidate, and try it out :)

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Joe,
We have what they refer to as the "Holy Grail"of trucks in CA. The suicide door is a nice feature (if ever you can consider suicide a nice feature). The extended cab is on my 4 wheel drive 1998. No crap on the motors or additional programs to increase performance. Just a Cummings diesel you put the key in and run, and run, and run....

Bcoastal,

I am a "stock" type fellow and am aware of gear ratios. If you plan on using the truck as a daily driver you would be better off with a little more power than gearing down. You will notice the poorer mileage and the high RPM as you go the higher speeds.

My 1996 gets about 20 mph +- depending on type of driving. Towing a bit less. Around 16 mph or so my guess. The 1998 has the lower gear ratio and heavier with the 4 wheel drive and I get 14 mph whether towing or not. Does not feel the load. Get the higher geared diesel and you would be one happy camper. Do check on gearing, makes a lot of difference. Especially highway.

Depending on launching conditions, your call.The 4 wheel drive is nice but comes at a price. I am looking for an inline aftermarket overdrive for the 1998 to get better mileage when unladen.

Both my trucks are 1 tons with the heavier rear ends/etc... I heard that the 3/4 tons of the same vintage get superior fuel performance.

Garris

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In a nutshell you have a 1999 Chevy 4x4 pickup that isn't working out as your tow vehicle. Look at the label on the glovebox door and see what axle option code you have. GU6 is 3.42 and GT4 is 3.73, (G80 is posi while you are looking). A Z71 should have 3.73 gears but you never know, if you have 3.42 gears no wonder you aren't happy.

Regardless you don't drive a big load with a light foot, you have to invest fuel when the momentum isn't working for you.

A lot of people say 1/2 ton trucks are fine for the load you are towing, which is true. However, more than 2/3's of your driving is hauling this large trailer. You really need to buy a 3/4 ton, there is no question.

I occasionally tow the same weight with both a 1/2 ton & 3/4 ton Suburban of the same body style as your truck, and I only tow with the 1/2 ton when I have to. The 3/4 ton is so much nicer. It has a 6.0 engine vs 5.3, 4.11 axle vs 3.73, the transmission is geared lower, it has tow/haul mode which changes the tranny shift points, has better suspension and better brakes.

The 1/2 ton gets just under 18 mpg, and the 3/4 ton gets just under 14 mpg. That's not even $500 per year for you. If I were you I would be buying a 2004-2006 GM 2500 truck w/ 4.11 gears. It will take some time to find a nice one but wait for the right one.

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I have a 1999 23' conquest with twins. I pull it with my 2013 F150 with a ecoboost. Not much of a difference btween the 23 and 25 I dont think. My truck is more then enough. I pull all the time at 70-75 and still have plenty left. BIG ISSUE I have is the ecoboost has a ton of power BUT is the worst gas milage wise when towing. If I had to do it again I would have gotten the V8. either way the truck is plenty for the boat and doesnt struggle in the least bit. On truck scale my boat and trailer with full tank of fuel is 7,100lbs.

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Pulling/towing is a question of torque produced by the engine and gear ratio. Which engine type produce the highest torque? Diesel does. yes you can put a 5.7 Hemi or a 6 liter gasoline engine in a truck with a low final gear ratio and they'll pull anything is it efficient? NO a strong gasoline uses mor gas than a smaller diesel with the same torque.
I recommend like Garris and some others did a (just run in) diesel with >100K miles on it with the cab arrangement you'll like for daily driving.

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The OP has a budget of under $10K. With that budget some recommendations from the group seem difficult.

Buying another truck is expensive. Add diesel to the mix and the cost zooms upward another big notch. An older Cummins diesel would be an ideal solution IF, big IF, he could find one in excellent condition. Remember, people buy Cummins diesels to work them hard so a lot of them are becoming tired. Has anyone priced a minor diesel overhaul lately? Just the cost of a set of rebuilt injectors or turbo is mind bending. Personally I would not buy an older diesel pickup without taking it to a trusted diesel shop for a complete inspection including bore scope and an oil analysis.

It also takes a long, long time for the better fuel economy of a diesel engine to pay for the added purchase and maintenance costs.

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Butch,
My maintenance to date for my Cummings motors are one water pump, filters, oil changes (a big must for the diesels) at 5000 miles, some gaskets/o ring replacement from accessory mounts. I have 275,000 miles on one, 130,000 miles on other. Not all the miles mine. I work them but never high RPM them (try never to go above 2500). However, the truck eats up front ends. Very diligent on grease and keeping front end tight. Dropped $1700 into one truck a couple years ago. I am not familiar enough with the post mechanical diesels to pass judgement but a friend passed on a Chevy with the Duramax because injectors a little under $1000 a hole (as I was told).

Garris

edit: Not to say you should go in this direction but.....I sneezed at a red light and my foot slipped off the clutch and my truck lurched and hit a tire of a dump truck in front of me. Total damage to repair (strictly cosmetic) $5200. Nearly totaled my truck from insurance appraiser. Could have gone either way. My repairs were done and my title still clear. Not salvaged. I see salvaged titles on this truck for less money. Not a direction I would take but putting it out there. Does not take much to total these older vehicles.

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7100 lbs seems light to me, what does a 25' Whaler/trailer/gear/fuel weigh? I looked up a slip when I brought a dump trailer to the recycle place with the 1/2 ton Suburban and the weight was 12000 lbs going in & 10000 lbs going out. I was thinking that was the sort of weight the OP was talking about.

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Well, MG56, the "OP" states in his original post the following...scroll to the top to see this for yourself...

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Thanks for all the replies. Still looking, 10k is probably not enough to get the truck I need.

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Garris,

The maintenance costs for a pre-electronic Cummins are probably less than for a new engine. If one chooses to do the work themselves the cost is even less. My statement on the high cost of diesel maintenance should probably said"higher cost". The oil change interval is much shorter for diesels and the oil and filters are more expensive and fuel filters and in some cases coolant filters also require periodic changes. As you no doubt know shop charges for these services are high.

One advantage seldom mentioned or used any longer is the easy recycling of used diesel engine crankcase oil. I always recycled mine by adding it to the almost full fuel tank. The engines liked it and it was free fuel. I also always installed an after market (Racor) fuel filter on my diesels. Having worked with diesels for virtually all my professional life I was very careful to ensure my engines had the best fuel filtration available.

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I've been operating diesels for several decades as well, but haven't transitioned into any of the truly modern versions with all the emmission controls etc. So I don't doubt that the newest ones are more complicated and costly to maintain. But with these less complex engines I've operated, my maintenance experience has been characterized by low-cost and simplicity. Regarding oil change intevals, I thought I'd mention that my current diesel daily driver has a 10K miles oil change interval (synthetic required). That is significantly better than our other gasoline-engine-powered vehicles.

There are pros and cons to choosing diesel over gasoline and vice versa. But any large displacement engine with high-cylinder count and multiple cylinder banks is going to cost more to operate and maintain over the long haul, as compared to smaller engines with fewer cylinders in a single bank. So I think to a certain extent, higher operating costs go with the territory when looking at heavy haulers such as these pick-up trucks.

If I was in the hunt on the used market, I would stress overall condition more so than diesel v. gas. There are just tons of good gas-powered trucks out there to choose from, but not so many diesels. I think the OP could easily find a solid gas-powered pick-up within his budget, that would haul his boat just fine. But finding Garris' truck might be tough.

As an aside -- for those with less demanding towing requirements than the OP -- Chevy is releasing a new Duramax diesel-powered Colorado (their smallest pickup). It has a 2.8L 4-cylinder with roughly 180 hp and 369 ft/lb of torque. The 4WD version is rated to tow 7600 lbs and, while it hasn't received an official EPA mileage rating yet, there is a good chance it will exceed 30 mpg on the highway (unladen). The 4-cylinders in a sinlge cylinder bank should help to keep maintenance costs down, as well as the 7500 mile oil change interval. It might be an attractive option for anyone with the 18-22 foot Whalers, that also needs a reasonably economical daily driver.

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JRP great info above and good points you made before. Thanks EJO

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I wasn't exactly sure about any of his specifics, I just thought 7000 lbs for a truck, a 25' Whaler and all the gear was a low weight. Which is why I looked up my weigh slip for the Burb and a dump trailer. The dump trailer is about 2500 lbs so just my truck and what I carry in it weighs 7000 lbs +.

As for the OP thinking $10k isn't enough to find a nice older truck? All he has to do is decide what he wants and then take the time to find one. Just like finding the classic Whaler you want. I've said what I would look for with GM trucks so maybe the Ford guys can recommend what they feel comfortable with. Not to insult anyone but I think it will be GM or Ford, and I am not that crazy about Fords.

I also mentioned above that bcoastal could check his rpo codes on the glovebox door to see what axle ratio he has with the 1/2 ton. If he has 3.42 gears that truck is going to be painful for towing, if he has 3.73 gears then he has to buy a 3/4 ton.

Until that day comes I recommend that he drive that truck with the RPM's in the power band and down shift to keep them there. You don't tow trying to get awesome fuel economy, that wears the guts out of your drivetrain.

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Butch,
I am interested in the used oil recycling in the fuel. We used to mix old gas and chainsaw mix in the older carburetor trucks. Does the oil keep things nice and coated in there. Great info and I appreciate your input. Is it an advantage to the motor or just a way to recycle?

Garris

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I moved from a 1/2 Suburban to a 3/4 Suburban. I am less worried about going fast as I like the 3/4 frame and braking when hauling my 22 ft alumimun boat.

My 3/4 T suburban has the 8.1 L motor and pulls quite well. I am a past diesel owner and do like diesel, but the 8.1 does alright.

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Garris,

Got your email. I posted a response to your ?, but it was lost in the WWW.

Other than saving a few pennies by putting a gallon plus of used engine oil in the fuel tank and avoiding donating your used oil to a recycler there is no advantage.

For fleets and large engine users the advantages are much greater. When one deals with thousands of gallons of lube oil per year as I once did at work the savings become very significant.

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In case anyone is interested, the EPA mpg ratings were just released for the new Chevy Colorado/GMC Canyon Duramax diesel mid-size pick-up truck. The 2WD = 22 city / 31 highway, and the 4WD = 20 city / 29 highway. Towing capacity is 7700 and 7600 lbs, respectively.

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How much truck for a 25 Ourage?

This much:

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/lgolt...0662058198

The 1996 Caddy has a factory installed 7000# tow package.

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I'm with Larry - you don't need a big truck. My 2012 Suburban 1500 has no trouble with my Outrage 25, pulling several thousand miles a year. In flat areas it is easy, and even in the mountains here it has no trouble pulling them at the speed limit. The Suburban has the 5.3L engine, 6 speed, and 3.42 rear end.

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A Suburban isn't an entry level pickup like the OP has. They are generally the most capable 1/2 ton vehicle you can buy. You really do want a lower rear end than a 3.42 for towing though.

Here is a picture for Larry. 1972 Coupe Deville with stock rear air shocks, 472 w/ 80k miles, and mint from top to bottom. It got dumped on me and I didn't want it, and had no where to put it, and sold it for nothing. Well, I found a collector that gave it a good home, so as much as I would like to have it around to look at it is in a better place.

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Qtrme...F.jpg.html

That car will tow a 25 just fine, and look good doing it.

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That '72 Coupe DeVille brings back a lot of memories. Way back in 1975, my Dad sold me his then three year old 1972 Sedan DeVille, and I towed my 1971 Nauset around with it for several years. Absolutely loved that car, and never even knew the boat was behind me!

When Cadillac was making the large body Fleetwood Broughams with 7000# factory option tow package, 1991-1996, a Cadillac mechanic told me they were basically Suburbans in disguise, with all Suburban drive train and accessory mechanical parts except for the truck suspension. They are all running factory 3.70 rear end ratios with either Positraction or Traction Control, and you have to tow in 3rd (3), not overdrive (D). That cuts the highway fuel mileage in half - 9 or 10 vs 20mpg.
For the 25, a weight distributing hitch is mandatory, but not for anything smaller. these cars are heavy, low in profile, with important long wheelbase, and tow extremely well - much better than one would expect.

When the Caddy's give up the ghost, a long wheelbase Suburban/Denali/Escalade will be in oder, as I prefer those to a pickup. I think it's the best all around tow vehicle one can buy, especially with family/friends as passengers and longer trips.

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Yeah, I guess it depends on perspective, but around here a Suburban is considered a "big truck." In this urban area pick-up trucks are relatively scarce, and those that do have them are usually running a Tacoma or occasionally a "big" F-150. Some folks have Suburbans but they are tricky to navigate and park in the tight conditions here.

Have you guys priced new or used Suburbans lately? I looked at them on a nearby Chevy lot last year, and couldn't find one with an MSRP below $65K. Some of them were optioned over $80K. And I have not seen Chevy offer any incentives or discounts -- the factory in Texas has added extra shifts to keep up with demand. The used examples also seem to hold their value. By comparison, a crew cab pick-up truck is much more affordable!