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I decided this holiday weekend to go back to work on my project 13 footer. My plan was to cut the non-skid so i could access the foam and dig out the wet stuff. To be sure she hadn't miraculously dried, i weighted the boat and sure enough she still weighs 400# or than 150# heavier than a bare 13 footer should weigh.

I realized that my plan to dig out the foam while leaving the floor in place has huge issues, not the least of which is how to stabilize the floor when you pull out the foam. OK, that an how to get out the foam? I can basically pulverize the foam with a wire brush chucked into the drill but that will take a long, long time.

Here is my project album so you can catch up on the progress, and see just how wet she is.
http://www.whalercentral.com/userphot...lbum_id=37

I am torn between, cutting out the rest of the floor, removing the foam and trying to get her as light as possible and replacing the foam i have pulled out, sealing up the boat and going boating. Hence the poll.

Thoughts from the members?

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Well Kamie from West Virginia,
Looks like you are having a ton of good fun refitting that Classic 13.
And I hope that you will get my meaning of;
In for a penny,
In for a pound...
If time is no object to you
And this in the sake to do this detail in a most non destructive way as possible
I personally would put the hull up against a fair structure
being layed at an 85' angle
And let gravity slowly move water
toward the ground or stern section.
You may or may not have enough breathing holes to remove most condensate from the foam structures and will deal accordingly.
I have proven that time, temperature and the method of this action will give total satisfaction in removing water from the inner structures of your hull.
http://www.whalercentral.com/userphot...oto_id=732
As you can see from this photo
The undeniable signs of a dried up water intrusion has been dealt with and has been cured using this method.
The angle of inclination was not as the prescribed 80' described here but warehoused storage time did the trick.
You may be inclined to get it done quick and take the floor out and refoam.
I could expand on this method more extensively if you want to take that route.

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As I recall you have had this boat for a number of years and have tried the drip method without success. You have close to 20 gallons of water in the foam, no way it will never dry out. So cut up the floor and pull the foam out, Cut the wet foam with a handsaw in small sections and use whatever is neccesary to clean out the foam. Probably a wide 6" chisle used for concrete will work. I would enjoy reading ritzy's method of replacing the floor. Its been done before, but the boat will never be worth what an original dry one is simply becuase you can buy a good dry 250# 13 footer for less than a grand.

rich

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The thing that always worries me about letting existing foam dry out is that the closed cell structure of the foam is already damaged. So if there's any future intrusion of water, the old foam seems more ready to absorb it than new would.

As far as you've gone already, might as well go all the way with new foam and have a nice, dry, high floating 13.

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The hull sat upside down with holes cut in the deck for almost 3 1/2 years and didn't shed a pound.

I too would love to hear of ritzy's method for replacing the floor. That is probably what concerns me most about cutting it up.

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Neither, try my method. Since you have the floor open, its perfect time and its CHEAP.

Buy three or four 64oz cans of Damp Rid, a large plastic sheet (drop cloth) and high quality masking tape. Seal the open containers in like this:

http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u...7/0013.jpg

MAKE SURE THE SYSTEM IS AIRTIGHT AND CHECK IT OFTEN, ADDING TAPE, etc.

Roll out into Sun as often as you can, until you stop seeing condensation form on this inside edges, particularly near the edges. Three weeks should do it. If you over dry, the gelcoat will feel strange, but no worries the humidity in the air will bring it back to normal in a few days. I successfully dried all of my Whaler hulls this way. I think is cost me $60.00. This method made my Black 15 "bone dry" as I was trying to make the hull as light as possible.

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james
interesting idea, do you have before and after weights on the hulls?
The sitting in the sun is not an issue, the challenge might be that I am nowhere near the boat normally so it would only get checked weekly and would need to sit outside as i have no garage.

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Unfortunately I do not, but I can tell you that the there were a few pounds of water in each bucket when I removed them. The previous owner had drilled large access plate holes and even mounted a trolling motor to the bow. My hull was stored outside to the original owner for under the same tree for 26 years. If you knew me you would understand, that I considered extreme measures to dry this hull, I have a 'drive-in' sized drying oven that we use to dry rolls of polycarbonate sheet that was a "fall back option". This method was effective, core drills deep in the hull and transom proved it.

As an addendum to my instructions above use heavier plastic, and prop up the plastic so rain water will not accumulate. You might want to put a continuous double sided adhesive strip around the hull first then stick the plastic to it, use 3M, no walmart brand, or it will be impossible to get off.

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In answer to the survey question, it depends.

If I could live with it forever, I would.

If I couldn't live with it and I was in love with the boat, I'd repair it.

If I couldn't live with it and didn't think it was worth the cost and/or effort to repair, I'd sell the boat and start over. There are a lot of nice classic 13s out there.

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I voted to close it up and go boating. That is much better than the cost involved in removing the entire floor and all the foam. I would try the Damp rid first though. It would not cost much or take a lot of time.
You will end up with extra weight in the boat if you pull the entire floor and have to fiberglass a floor in prior to pouring the foam. So How much weight will you really be shedding by doing a floor?

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Problem is waterlogged foam, condenses and pulls away from the glass shell, so it is useless, and never can be restored.

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DampRid is used for pulling out the humidity in the air. Not sure it would pull 20 gallons of water from the saturated foam that is under the deck. I don't think the floor was removed, just some holes cut through it to try and remove moisture.

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That is utter nonsense. Wet foam does not pull away from the 'glass skins.

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Not necessarily. There is a notion that the closed cells of the foam in Whalers are 100 percent closed, but that is not true. I suspect the foam with water in it has suffered some break down of the cell walls, but it is not a black and white distinction. Microscopic examination of formerly waterlogged foam and never-waterlogged foam shows it looks much the same.

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DampRid is calcium chloride. You can buy huge bags of it from your local concrete supplier.

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My comment that wet foam will pull away from the glass skin, I used the wrong word. It is supposed to stick to the exterior glass, and the underside of the plywood decks, which I think is the whole Whaler concept, and I know from experience that it doesn't. When I cut out a portion (6"x 4ft or so) in the deck of my 15 footer, to build a rigging tunnel, this is what I found. There were 4 or five screw holes in the old deck that were not properly sealed, and water intruded into the foam for about an inch deep. The deck itself had some rot around the screw holes. The plywood itself was 1/2" CDX 3 core plywood, the same stuff we used to sheet the roofs on houses. So much for using quality materials. Also, when I pulled up that section of plywood on the dry portion, the foam was adhered to it, and on the small wet section, the wet wood was clean of foam and pulled away from the wood which had slightly condenced. I then dug out the foam under the removed deck to make a cavity for the tunnel.

Tom, you're good at giving negative answers as to why someone is wrong, how about some advice on how Kamie can solve this wet foam problem, and rid the foam of water or build a new foam filled deck.
Stick to prop advice, please.

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Can someone look at the pic you posted, first one on the third page of your album, and comment on how it sits??

I cannot, but someone who has a 13 or worked on one should be able to tell if it's sitting too low from that picture. If it sits OK, would you leave it wet, or still want to dry it out?

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If you come across a 13 ft Whaler sitting on a trailer or blocks, and there is no outboard installed, an average person should be able to lift up the stern corner of the boat. (Not the whole stern) with out alot of strain. My 13 footer, bare hull weighs 280 lbs on a scale. Five years ago, age 70, I rolled it over by myself.

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There are some open holes in the deck but it is by no means all open. The last photo on my project album shows the current state or here is a link
http://www.whalercentral.com/userphot...to_id=1636

There is no way to lift the stern of this 13, I can lift and move the bow but the stern, where the water is, is way too heavy

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Kamie, This is just my opinion, but I think you have two options. You have had this boat for a long time, you have been writing about restoring it for years, so you must have an emotional attachment to it. I've searched the internet to find someone with pics that replaced the floor in a 13 footer but no luck. As you know the floor is not plywood flat. A few years ago I restored a bass boat that was foam filled beneath the floor and water intruded into the foam and the plywood floor was soft. It was a fairly easy job, I ripped out the old floor and dug out the foam. the boat had glass stringers, So I just screwed new plywood down, filled the cavities with foam put some carpet on the plywood and everything was new. Not so on your Whaler. Personally, I can't think of a way to make it look original, and if it looks odd with a flat floor, well it won't be worth what is costs to do that job. I would give up on it, and donate it to a nice fish restaurant who would use it for a decoration. You might get a few fish dinners out of it too.

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Binkie, from what I recall Tom has extensive experience with the effects of water on a 13 foot Whaler. I believe he completely dissected a water logged one with the intent of it being a science project, sending core samples out to labs for testing etc. If Tom makes a comment about a 13 Whaler, it is a fact, not an opinion.

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I am glad to see that you have decided to hang in there and to address the extra weight and water problem.
First,I would arm myself with a great deal of patience in regard to the correction of these problems.
I have noted that the foam types used in this construction style has more or less different degrees of retention capacities.
On some of the inner foam inspections seen here
Most will not readily sponge and retain liquids but rather let gravity direct water to the keel section of the hulls.
It has been observed that water will basically"tunnel" or lay against the inner hull surface and readily travel when following the incline at stern.
Your foam may be of a more easily saturated and retaining sort.
You will remember that no mater what your efforts will be, the end results will never be absolutely perfect.
If bent on removing your foam
You will have to carefully trace your cutting lines following your INNER deck surface shown on your photo.
http://www.whalercentral.com/userphot...to_id=1635
It is important that you carefully follow your precise lines with a smaller grinder coupled to a cutting disc.
http://www.whalercentral.com/userphot...oto_id=743
After having precisely cut the lower deck surface.
The ticket will be to carefully detach the deck piece from the foam underneath.
I have used a long handle scraper type to get this done.
The idea is to salvage the deck piece whole, to repair the damages.
Once that you have patiently detached the polyester resin part, you will set it aside for repairs.
You will now be able to have a good lock at what may have been the problems causing this snag.
Remove as much foam as possible,repair and resurface your deck flooring piece, making sure to install "breathing holes" needed when re introducing the liquid to expand and set as foam.
Re attach your bottom deck piece back, refill the foam agents let expand and exit through the breathing holes thus filling all voids.
Care full to not put too much foam liquid as it would balloon your deck structures.
Trim excess foams from breathing holes and fill said holes with pre fab medallions to seal the deal.
Cosmetics to the cut areas will be done last.
Like I did say prior, the refit may not be perfect as in removing of ALL foams but will fill your expectations if done properly.
Bonne Chance.

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Here is a link to Metan Marine's photo album of a 13 foot restoration project. I must say they really do, restore the hull to it's former glory.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...amp;type=3

if your not on facebook i'm not sure it will be visible, i searched but it is no longer on their regular site.

I really would only need to open up the deck from the wet/dry line back as the forward section of the hull is dry. The water intrusion is from the the open crack in the floor midship and the unsealed holes/cracks where the seats were secured. I also noticed that the exposed foam dries quickly, it might make easier going if I allowed the foam to dry, then pulverize it until i get to the really wet foam and then allow the newly exposed foam to dry before continuing. Pulverizing the wet foam turns it into what looks like smashed apple.

The wet/dry line is roughly half of the boat, the bow half is dry and the stern half is wet. Probably not 100% but close. That means the bow and stern should each weigh 125#. In the case of this boat, the bow is fine but the stern comes in at 275#, add to that 100# engine and humans and pets, and you have a stern swamped boat.

Not quite sure i'm ready to give the boat to a fish restaurant, but i have been warned about turning it into a planter in the front yard.

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Ritzy sez; It has been observed that water will basically"tunnel" or lay against the inner hull surface and readily travel when following the incline at stern.

Not so, according to Tom, the wet foam remains firmly attached to the hull, so water can't tunnel under or over the foam. I saw different when I pulled up a wet section of deck on my 15 footer. There was no foam attached to the wet underside of the deck.
Looks like Metan did the job a little different than Ritzy's explanation, but if you have the money, the manpower the vacuam bagging equipment and the know how you can do a successful job. Good luck
I would go for a few fish dinners myself.

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The Metan job is beautiful but I would bet it cost $15,000. Since you have the floor as open as it is already why not "make" a blade for a sawzall out of something like a discarded batten from a sail or some other material that will cut through the foam but not the skin of the floor or bottom. Sort of create an electric carving knife. Serations could be made in the blade as needed and you could make it pliable enough to follow the contours. I have removed a lot of similar foam [used as a spray insulation on the roof of buildings] and if you can detach it from the substrate it could be removed in fairly large chunks. You would still probably have to use the long wire brush idea to get back at the transom.

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There is no doubt that good manners could be brushed on in some of the comments read from above .
Talk is cheap
And going on record giving freely of our experience
An acknowledgement should be the very least that We would expect.

On the factual front
The Metan group is composed of a crew of numerous seasoned glass workers
And this global experience is well tagged at the prices posted on all of their finished projects.
One Capital fact should be mentioned here.
Most if not all of their refits are done with a finished product called Epoxy paint.
The "REAL"and fateful resurfacing will be done with gellcoat
And this for the authenticity of a TRUE CLASSIC refit.
I would very much doubt that Metan would realistically invest in the countless hours needed for a whole Polyester Resin resurfacing involving the vast amount of spraying and sanding needed to bring it back to a near perfect and fateful product.
So all in all, not a very realistic comparison to the vast majority of do it yourselves as Kamie being one of the latest questioner here.
And as far as the negative hacks out there
The comments made and actually backed by Our own manual works in these field, will not be marginalized by so and so quoting third and fourth parties supposed comments.
For the educated ones
There is always something new and unusual to be gathered and sometimes shared with the curious ones.
You did ask and I did respond.
Would that possibly be good enough for you Kamie from West Virginia?

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Kamie, here is an idea I just had. Mtown hit on a good idea with a long sawzall blade. I think a electric carving knife would be easier to use. I used one several times to cut up large pieces of dense foam for cushions. It cuts foam like butter and does a nice neat job, so there in no reason it would not work for removing foam in your boat. I bought mine at Target for about $10. I don't use it to carve roasts or turkey, but then I don't eat that stuff anyway. You say the wet foam is in the mid to rear portion of the boat. Cut 12"x12" squares out of your deck. You should have about 12" between these cutouts. Cut them out with your circular saw set on 45 degrees inward. Number these cutouts and also draw an arrow pointing forward. the idea is your going to replace them as you foam the deck. The whole premise here is that the deck is not rotted and is worth reusing. The 13 footer due to is its convex shape is not plywood based. Now it should be easy to clean out the foam with your carving knife. OK, next pick up a concrete block for each square hole you cut. Use the right type of foam, I think 4 pound, but you can reaserch this and buy the foam, . Now start foaming toward the front and work towards the rear. Pour the foam in through the square holes, (you will have to practice to get the right amount, but when you think you have enough replace the cutout and put a conctret block on top. they weigh about 40 lbs, and should hold the cutout down. The 45 degree cut you made will keep them from falling into the foam. Just keep at it until you get them all filled. The foam will stick the cutouts down, so they just need to be glassed in. then glass over the whole area with glass mat.

This idea popped into my head a little while ago while I'm out in my garage laminating the center console mold I'm building. So I'm typng this on a break. Hope it helps. Mtowns idea got me thinking.

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one other thing, lay the concrete blocks the long way, they are 16" long, not on end. that way they won't push the cutouts into the hole. I think this idea will work. If I could find a waterlogged 13 footer for next to or free, I would try this mthod myself, rid the boat of waterlogged foam, then sell it and make a few $$.

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I try the carving knife, I don't own one currently but a $10 target / walmart special is not too high a cost. Less than most of the power tools I buy. I did learn from looking at the Metan photo pages that to do the foam they tip the boat, rather than hope it runs in the correct direction. I have done foam work on the outside and it goes everywhere but where you want it. Learning how they directed the foam up under the deck was important.

Great suggestions everyone.

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Good idea with the tilting thing. block up the bow maybe 6 inches and start foaming from the stern. If you lay the blocks over the covered poured spaces, the expanding foam will move forward and the blocks will keep the covers in place.

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I am going to go back to my first idea and switch to the electric knife or a similar tool to remove the foam. Ideally if I can get it removed without cutting up the deck it would be better. Even if that means cutting the access holes where i actually need to repair gelcoat anyway.

One question to Ritzy, if I cut out the entire back half of the deck, how would i reattach it? Not sure i can reach the sides from under the deck to secure it using resin and fiberglass? I could potentially reach most of the way around given the access holes i already have, just looking for thoughts?

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[ just looking for thoughts?]

Your perseverance in trying to do your best to refit this humble piece of Whaler history and to the fact that Girls from the South are the INN thing on this list;
I will put some of my thoughts in momentarily managing this refit from my "beach front" seating position here on the Big Island;
In the needs for repairing original parts,I have carefully separated and re attached polyester structures on numerous occasions.
My mentality toward this specific example of refit would be to do the proper thing and do what needs to be structurally done.
The water intrusion my have gotten into some of the inner sections but you must envision the whole "finished product"
In order to make this refit a reality you will have to take the path of removing the whole lower section of this sweet little tender.
I would not recommend to replace half the foam on the bottom structure.
You should be forceful in the fact that to replace ALL bottom foam will make this repair a reality.
Precisely trace the FULL extent of the LOWER deck structure
http://www.whalercentral.com/userphot...to_id=1635
From front to back and importantly giving you FLAT SURFACE left (3 inches) from the 90 some degrees angle to gunwale rise.
This, being done to give the refastening of the removed deck structure a decent point of purchase when replacing the "Lid" to the deck's bottom.
When refastening your carefully removed and repaired deck piece
http://www.whalercentral.com/showuser...oto_id=745
You will be wise to plan your refoaming using several people pouring carefully monitored quantities of liquid at the same time.
Digest this and act accordingly.
PS-I would enjoy to put a face to the name.

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Hope you start back on your 13 footer soon, Remember every thing you can envision you can build if you have the perseverance.

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[quote]ritzyrags wrote:
[ just looking for thoughts?]

Your perseverance in trying to do your best to refit this humble piece of Whaler history.
And to the fact that Girls from the South are the INN thing on this list;
(Was there ever a doubt)
I will put some of my thoughts in momentarily managing this refit from my "beach front" seating position here on the Big Island;
In the needs for repairing original parts,I have carefully separated and re attached polyester structures on numerous occasions.
My mentality toward this specific example of a refit would be to do the proper thing and to be doing what needs to be structurally done.
The water intrusion in its tracing may have gotten into some of the inner sections
Keep in mind of your vision of the whole "finished product"
In order to make this refit into a reality you will have to take the path of; 1-Removing the whole lower section of this sweet little tender.
I would not recommend to replace half the foam on the bottom structure.
2-You should be forceful in the fact that to replace ALL bottom foam will make this repair a reality.
Precisely trace the FULL extent of the LOWER deck structure

http://www.whalercentral.com/userphot...to_id=1635

From front to back and importantly giving you FLAT SURFACE left (3 inches) from the 90 some degrees angle to gunwale rise.
This, being done to give the refastening of the removed deck structure a decent point of purchase when replacing the "Lid" to the deck's bottom.
When refastening your carefully removed and repaired deck piece

http://www.whalercentral.com/showuser...oto_id=745

You will be wise to plan your re foaming using several people pouring carefully monitored quantities of liquid at the same time.
Digest this and act accordingly.
Busy day, Late and got to be going.

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I am working up the next plan and gathering appropiate new tools based on the discussions. I am not sure i need to pull the foam from the front half of the boat. From my current testing that is all dry, with maybe some damp spots around all the screw holes. The only reason i would consider pulling up the entire floor is to make it easier to reattach the floor.

Here is my next plan so far:
1. working from the back to the front use the electric knife / wire brush to remove the foam.
2. If I can remove the foam successfully, then i will need to brace up the floor. I can use 2x4 blocks to keep it from sagging.
3. If i can not remove the foam successfully, then i will proceed to cut out the section of floor over the wet foam.
4. remove the foam until i have removed all the wet foam.
5. go weight the boat - I am going to assume at this point the boat will weigh close to 250#. When i repaired the big hole from the outside the foam up the sides of the boat was dry. I don't expect to find much other water intrusion, other than the floor. Anything from the screw holes should be small and localized.
6. If we are significantly over 250#, look for more water, otherwise launch the boat in the yard to begin the refoaming process. This way I can tilt the boat and get the foam to run into any corners rather easily.
7. Position additional 1x6 boards where I will need backing support for screwing down batteries, gas tanks or the new interior.
8. Start pouring foam

chances are, on my next trip down to the boat, i will get started but by no means finished the next set of steps. I will keep everyone posted on how things start to progress.

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It seems to me that if you are going to fill a large area with foam your biggest concern will be how to limit the expansion. If you intead to remove the foam just leaving the inner & outer shells you will find they are rather flimsy, and any area not completely supported will bulge out.

Ya?

Another thought I had was why not remove the the bottom for access, the bottom the much easier to re-glass back in?

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Instead of using wood blocks to keep the deck from sagging after the foam has been removed use PVC pipe. get a piece of 1" sched 40 and just cut them to whatever length needed. You can just leave them there, not a good idea to leave wood blocks in place. Now you need to think about how to keep the deck from growing a belly when it expands. No way to pour the exact amount needed. Either too much or too little. Some expansion holes need to be drilled in the deck before foaming. I don't think you are ready to start. Your plan is too sketchy. If you have any doubts you won't be successful. People have removed sections of the bottom to remove bad foam. Its another way to do it, but you already have holes in your deck, so why change direction in mid stream., and the deck which is thin in a 13 footer would still have to be suported if you flipped the boat and went through the bottom.

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I wasn't planning on pouring it all at the same time. When i get to that point, i will pour the stern section with the boat tipped up on it's stern. Then roll the boat either port or starboard and pour that section, then finally pour the remaining center section. At all points there are enough escape holes to keep from pushing up the deck especially if i mix small enough batches of foam. I can't remember but I believe you can add another layer of foam as soon as the current layer stops expanding.

What is the issue leaving blocks of wood in the hull? There is wood foamed into the hull now?

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What is the issue leaving blocks of wood in the hull? There is wood foamed into the hull now?

Probably no issue, but when you have a solid piece of 2x4 wedged on end between the bottom and the floor, you create a direct shock with no give if you take a hard hit from waves. The rest of the hull
will slightly compress and the shock would be less, it stands to reason. Might eventually crack the deck at the point of the wood. It just doesn't seem like a professional way to do it. The deadwood in the hull is to screw things into, and its a piece of plywood glued to the underside of the deck..

The best thing to do first is to remove all of the wet foam, and see what you have. It might be like a wet piece of baloney, or it might stand by itself. Then a decision can be made how to deal with it. I'm only trying to help with some ideas, I don't know what you're looking for, ideas or just a confirmation of your ideas.
Good luck with your project.

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This project intrigues me and I keep thinking how to create a reverse mold of the existing floor. How about taking a large sheet of cardboard that has enough flex an also enough stiffness to conform to the rear section being replaced. Compress it after cutting to shape and get the contours to match. While in place, epoxy or glass on top of the cardboard to make it keep its shape and after that is set you should be able to remove it in one piece leaving you with a reverse of the floor. It would be worth while to place plastic sheet under it in case any resin seeped thru the cardboard. Now when you pour the foam you have a barrier the proper shape to act as a "mold". Escape holes would be needed for excess expansion and lots of weight or bracing on the top side of the cardboard mold would be required. I agree about the wood bracing creating hard spots and would not use that even though I probably would have without reading this thread. Wood will be fine encapsulated in the foam but not good if it touches the bottom and the deck.

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Good point on the wood, i had not thought of that. I could use foam? I could basically make 2x4 blocks of foam, cut them to size and use them if i need to hold the deck up.

I am looking for fresh ideas i haven't thought of, confirmation of my ideas as well as someone to shoot holes in my ideas so i get better ideas

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Yes foam blocks, make sure it's closed cell of course. Dow should be fine. Did you see the jig for the 15' Whaler on here months ago. Someone posted a link to it for sale for $2000. It had lots of pictures and was made of steel for the pressure of the foam expansion. If you can find it, it might help you visualize what to do. That is kind of what made me think of the cardboard form idea. When a copycat 'splashes' a hull shape they must have a method for recreating the lines of an existing hull and deck. I think the foam removal is not that tough but as you realize putting the same shape back in place will be the hard part.

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The point of carefully cutting the bottom deck out was to save the part.

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I get that part but why cut out more than i have too?

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Where is the bottom deck found on a 13 ft. Whaler?

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Quote;
I get that part but why cut out more than i have too?
1-Structural integrity of the finished repairs.
2-The idea is to remove foam only if you must
3-By removing the floor or deck you will have a better exposure of all foam and may be able to skip replacement and let thoroughly dry.
4-You can beef up the whole deck structure before re fiberglassing it to the gunwale cut outs.;)

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Bink,
Quote;
Where is the bottom deck found?

The lowest point of the inner structure.

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I don't believe that by pulling off the deck, the foam will dry. The top 2 inches or so might dry but it will still be wet below that. Pulling off the deck would make the foam easier to remove, although i believe it would be harder to actually repour the foam and get it to the correct shape without bowing the deck. I would imagine that i would end up pouring the foam, shaping it and then replacing the deck. Because the boat sits outside in the moist air off the water, I really need to remove the foam, weigh the boat and hopefully refoam all in a single weekend. To get the boat down close to it's 250# i need a target weight of 225# before refoaming assuming my average depth guess is correct for the volume of the foam. I will need to reconfirm once i get back to the boat. I did come across this note on the US Composites web page when talking about the 2# foam.
"This foam is approximately 95-98% closed cell which resists absorbing water, however continuous water submersion can eventually lead to loss of buoyancy over a period of years. "

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In this case
I suggest that you make a study of how Metan did this repair and copy as best you can.

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I worked some more on the project this weekend. I tried cutting the foam with an electric knife but that was less than successful. Not sure if it was the angle of the cut up under the deck or what. I also cut out the center section to attempt to remove it as a single piece, but the glass/gelcoat is way too thin to hold it's shape once pulled away from the foam. based on that, my plan is to sacrifice the deck in favor of gaining access to remove all the wet foam. Hopefully i will have the deck off and will start removing the wet foam tomorrow. If that is the case, i'll post more photo's on my project album.

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I will look forward to seeing your project pictures.

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Successfully removed the center of the deck, in one piece. Nice warm sun aided the removal. Hopefully with the deck removed, i can remove the foam and the water. I will start removing the foam this afternoon but suspect the progress will really happen next time i have a chance to work on the boat. Added a photo with the deck up and the foam exposed

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I made progress this after noon. Mostly testing tools and the clear winner for removing lots of foam is a Dremel Multimax with a large scraping blade. The blade actually slices the foam and it can be removed in large pieces. I have all the removed wet foam in a couple trash bags, i might weight them next time I am working on the boat. Once the exposed foam is out, i will switch back to the wire brush to grind out the foam under the remaining deck, as far as i can.

The foam is wet on the bow side of my wet / dry line so once the foam in the stern is removed and the boat weighted, i will decide if i am going to remove the foam in the front half of the boat. It will depend on how wet the boat still is, I have no trouble lifting the bow so i may leave whatever damp foam is there.
Photo of the foam removal progress posted.

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I made more progress today. I did manage to lift the boat onto it's port side, so clearly it is shedding weight as I could not do that solo before. Having it on the port side, makes it easier to grind out the foam under the remaining deck section. The foam is wet all the way to the gunnals.
couple new photo's in the project album, may post more this weekend, depending on how far along I get.

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http://www.whalercentral.com/images/photoalbum_3/useralbum_37/img_0026_1_wc_t2.jpg


The white gel coat looks terrific. I tried to quote the picture of your naked boat floating. How is it floating too low? It is standing above the area usually coated with bottom paint. I would probably just move the console forward a few inches and enjoy it.


http://www.whalercentral.com/images/p..._wc_t2.jpg

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Thanks, once I am done with the inside, i will need to redo the outside gelcoat. There were a lot of places i didn't pay enough attention to the prep work, even though I know better. I also had one layer that cured but not real hard, i figured i messed up the catalyst on that one. Once i dig out the wet foam and replace the interior, i will flip it to sand and reapply another coating of gelcoat.

I am glad i dug out the foam or at least am in the process of doing so. It is not a project for the faint of heart, it's a lot of work. There is something to be said for doing it at least once when you advise folks to "close it up and go boating"

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i have put some pics on my page of the moisture meter i borrowed ,i realise that you are well progressed in your digging ,but i think it might save some work if you can get hold of one of these ,in saying that the meter might be too sensitive ,some areas of foam i have dug out are dry to touch and even though some areas along the keel are showing high readings when i push a hacksaw blade into the foam it has no moisture on it .but i have also found old repairs that have soft resin in them because they have probaly been glassed over wet foam,soft center so to speak.

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No moisture meter required. The hull weight was 400# or 150# of water that shouldn't be there. I have the port side fairly free of foam, although i want to try and work my way back to the stern corner. It may not be possible where the shear brace is and the remaining deck piece doesn't give enough room for the drill. Interesting note, the shear brace is actually foam filled and not solid glass and resin.

The bow is light, my neighbor lifted it so i could work the boat back on the trailer. Now to get the stern lighter, then close it up and go boating

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Wow at 62 lbs/cbft that is almost 3 cbft of water. I would guess that it is almost total saturation for that small of a hull. Can you squeeze the foam and have it drip water?

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Probably if I could get in the back under the deck and cut out a section of foam. Currently I am just pulverizing it and pulling it out with a shopvac. When i first got the boat, you could push on the deck and water would squirt out the screw holes. I don't believe the boat is saturated, for that you would need a lot more water and it would have to be wet bow to stern. Not saying the foam is totally dry forward of the midsection of the boat, just not dripping wet.

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Kamie,

One thought on how to pour the foam with the least waste is to cover a large piece of cardboard in wax paper, or tape, and tape the cardboard to the floor over the cutout section. Maybe do a third at a time with bow up. Or use some form of flexible plastic sheets which may give a much better approximation of the original floor shape. It probably doesn't matter if the foam sticks to it or not.

I have done some foaming recently and adding foam to previously added foam works fine. You can keep adding it until the space has filled. Pouring small quantities until you get familiar with it seems key.

Also, if you have an electric sander with a vac attachment it works great for sanding the foam.

There is a 1960s 17 hull redone by metan with a few pics of foam under floor replacement. All the work they used to have on their site is still on youtube. They have a channel. Note they use a metal snow shovel to remove foam.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERbPJ_xxH6o&list=PLlDXFFy4XX7Xe0MOJxgTEyNsmw9irKRME

I am not sure if we can refer people to businesses on here but I found a great price on foam at a place called mertons fiberglass. Their prices on everything are very good.

http://www.mertons.com/Floatation/index.html

Personally I find attempting things like this myself rewarding, albeit requiring a lot of patience. Good luck.

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As I am grinding out the foam, i have a lot of time to consider how I will put it back in, fresh and dry. My current thought is to tilt the boat on it's stern and fill the stern, slightly (couple inches past the cut line. I will probably wrap the existing fiberglass in plastic wrap held with blue painters tape to prevent spills and be cautious at over filling. I will do the same with the port and starboard sides,. It will be easier to fill with the boat tipped on it's side. Once that is done, I will hollow out the foam below the edges, and work resin and mat around the edges to bond the sections back together. Once that is set, i should be able to fill under the deck, using small batches of foam. The foam should seek the path of least resistance and I hope won't distort the deck. I think small will be the watch word of the process.

The only thing i might change is to bond the fiberglass mat to the outside edges of the cut prior to foaming. Disclaimer: Since i have at least 1 maybe 2 days of foam grinding these plans could change.

Thanks for the link, I have the foam, hopefully i measured right and won't be too short. I get my foam at http://www.uscomposites.com/index.htmlindex.html

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Just adding to the mix here, last year on my 18' BW in Clearwater suggested I drill 1/4" holes every 10" along the transom and let it drain over the winter. I did that and although it pretty much dripped up to the day I plugged the holes once she went back in the water she still sits low.

It looks like the only way to fix a wet boat is to go through the work Kamie is doing or live with it. I feel better by at least giving it a try. I need to do some work on my tank cover and at that time I'll have access to the tank coffin and may decide to see what the foam in there is like. But at the moment it's far more work than my schedule can handle. The good news is that with the repairs I've done since buying the boat the condition seems to have stabilized and not geting any wetter.

More power to you Kamie...

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I think you have to define what is a "wet boat"? 150# of water in an 18 Outrage where you have a light boat, but a high HP engine is different than having 150# of water in a hull that should be only 250# I could have closed up the 13 and gone boating but that would have defeated the purpose of a project boat i can learn repairs on. For what I want to use the boat for, it really would have been fine, running in the creek or bass/snakehead fishing. As for schedule, there is always something getting in the way, especially if you actually have a boat you can use so you go out fishing rather than work on the project.

I would personally worry less about the foam around your gas tank and more about making sure that all the screw holes were filled and the glass was solid where it is exposed to water. On my 18, there were several screw holes for the tank cover that had cracked the gelcoat/fiberglass and were allowing water into the hull. I found the exit point when i first got the boat, and found the entry point under the tank cover when i replaced the engine in 2007. There was also a very thin section of glass/gelcoat in the rigging tunnel right where the starboard access tunnel meets the main rigging tunnel. I can look for after photo's but i just repaired any suspect areas with marine-tex.

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Kamie,

One thing to look out for when putting the floor back and using mat is air pockets between the floor and mat. I attempted to put a 2 x 3 panel back by putting a layer of CSM over the foam, some mash, then the panel. As it cured, a large air pocket developed between the panel and CSM. I had to remove it and start over. It was weighed down with only about 30 lbs.

I haven't attempted to put it back yet and am trying to figure out a good way to do it. I am thinking I will add a thin layer of foam, for-go the CSM, put down a thick layer of mash, put the panel down with a very heavy weight (at least 60 lbs) so that the mash pressed out all edges.

What is your plan for putting back the floor?

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My typo, meant to say keel not transom. As you mention about sealing up any water access points. I spent the first season finding and repairing entry points. The main ones were holes in the wells and the tank cover screws. This boats sits with all three aft drains under water with a poorly installed bilge pump in the forward well near the tunnel. Last summer after letting everything dry out really well I resealed the tank cover seam (and screw holes) Sealed the entry points to the well (side cover) and plugged all the extra screw holes. I then installed two of the new style auto sensing Whale bilge pumps in both wells and the boat has stayed nice and dry ever since - including the space on top of the tank - which always had standing water when I first got her. Removing the 8 hp Yammy kicker bought me a few inches of freeboard and out fishing last weekend in the upper bay with three of us never had an issue - there was about a 2' chop. Eventually I may add a 3.5hp Yammy 2 stroke but not until I move the batteries under the bench seat (just for peace of mind).

I'm still watching your steps - my hull is in great shape and the transom seems strong so maybe in the future. I appreciate your step by step on the project boat.

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Thinking some more about putting the deck back in while i wait for the rain to stop so I can remove the rest of the foam. I think this is my working plan.

1. I need to clean up the back side of the fiberglass. Both the cut out and the remaining deck. The wire brush gets out most of the foam but the fiberglass deck will need to be totally free of foam for the reinstall steps.

2. I am leaning toward making a tab out of CSM about 6 inches wide. I would adhere 3 inches to the underside of the deck and let that cure. Once cured, i will fold it over the front and cover with plastic to protect it from newly poured foam. I plan to only foam within 2 inches of the deck edge.

3. Once that foam has been poured, I will wet out the other half of the tab and put resin on the top of the shear braces to hold the deck in place. I am hoping that will be solid enough to hold the deck while I pour the remaining foam.

4. Tipping the boat on the stern, port and starboard sides, I plan to pour the majority of the remaining foam. I am wondering if it is worth wetting out the back of the insert piece with resin to form a bond with the newly poured foam?

5. Refoam the center section with the boat level on the trailer. Once all the foam is replaced, trim and lay down CSM to cover the gaps where I will need to add new gelcoat to the floor.

Once I am ready to gelcoat the inside, i will need to make a pattern of the non-skid. Depending on how that goes. I will recreate the non-skid down the center and probably around the cut line to the center piece so it blends back in.

Thoughts?

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In response to item #4 it seems like a good idea to wet the areas about to be re foamed as it will add a little strength as well as adhesion. I assume the foam you are using is pretty sticky on its own, but the coat of resin might also fill tiny cracks you can't see. I am sure you know this but for others, layup resin will remain tacky forever until you deprive it of air so the foam need not be installed while resin is curing.

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I am using Westsystem epoxy which will cure when exposed to air. The foam is very sticky which is why the tab and any floor I don't want the foam to stick too will be covered by painters tape and plastic.

The starboard side is very wet. Not sure if it is more or less than the port but hopefully she is shedding more weight. The foam is damp forward of my cut line so once I get the foam out and the boat weighted I will need to decide if taking up the remaining floor is required.

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As the work is progressing
Have you thought of beefing up your floor section from the inner side?
Keep up the good work Kamie.

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I am a huge fan of epoxy but in this case I would use the poly or vinylester resin for the fact that it will stay tacky and the added strength of epoxy is not a factor. The two part foam I am familiar with is very sticky and yours sounds similar so it may be a moot point. The other reason is if the West blushes at all you may be reducing the bond between the inner hull and the foam.

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I had considered it, but i'm not sure. Once the deck and the foam are back in the boat, I assume it will be as strong as it originally was. As long as there are no voids in the foam, that should be plenty strong. I do plan to add more wood under the deck, especially where i plan to install the dual consoles. I have not decided if I will install a piece of wood across the stern to hold gas cans and the batteries. I may in fact move the batteries under the dual consoles, leaving just the gas cans in the stern.

About 90% of the foam from the stern section is out. I have a small section in the starboard stern corner to work on tomorrow and that maybe all i can do. If I want to try and get back farther, i will need to pickup a second 12 inch drill but extension. I am afraid that it will wobble too much and not be that effective. Currently i can reach back past the non-skid.

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Sounds like a good plan. One thought is rather than just wetting out the back of the panel, use a thin layer of fiber glass mash on top of the foam, so that when you put in the floor, it squeeze out the edges, and you reduce the chances of an air pocket under the floor.

You could add a layer or 2 of of CSM on the whole floor once put back to strengthen the seams and the floor in general. Plus it will improve the surface quite a bit, but does add weight, albeit maybe 10 pounds?

Are you taking more pictures? It would be great to see the intermediate steps. I am doing something similar with glassing in two panels on the bottom of a 1963 17.

Do you plan on painting after putting back the floor?

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I will take more photo's after i finish digging out the remaining foam on the starboard side, cleanup some of the foam stuck to the fiberglass and probably get the hull back on the trailer. I also plan to measure and remove enough foam to install new wood under the deck where the consoles will be secured. As long as i have the deck open, might as well make sure i can secure the console to wood and not have screws into the nice dry interior.

I will wet sand all the flat areas, and gelcoat the repairs to the floor and make up a tube of gelcoat patch to fill all the little screw holes. The floor will still be a mess but the drive right now is to get a drier boat, put the interior back together so i can flip the hull, sand and respray the outside before winter.

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The boat currently weights 280#. I am guessing with the weight of the foam that needs to go back in, there is still close to 45# of water give or take. A good bit is still in the stern where i can not reach, possibly along the starboard and port sides where there were unsealed rails and most likely some forward of the cut line. I would float her to see how she sits in the water, but she would be the first whaler to sink so I will pass. When i removed the foam in the stern, i opened up the thru hull.

Tomorrow I will begin to prep for foam and replacement of the deck.

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A gallon of water weighs about 8.4 lbs so that means you have about 5.something gallons of water left in there. I think that's quite a lot to leave in there especially because it is concentrated in the stern where you'll add the weight of the engine. I haven't been keeping up with this thread but it is my understanding that several methods of reattaching the deck have been discussed and I would like to post a method I would use. I would glue thin wooden battens to the undersides of the remaining deck so they span the opening where you have removed the deck. After pouring the new foam simply shave it down to the surface of the battens and then place the piece of deck you removed on top of the battens and it should fit perfectly. Thinking over this I would cut 1/4 inch plywood strips about 1.5 inch wide and glue them in on edge and the foam wouldn't deform it that way.

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To remove the remaining water I would need to cut open the transom and /or cut open at least the starboard side of the boat. I am hoping that the buoyancy of the dry foam will compensate for the remaining water still trapped in the stern. It means I will move the batteries under the consoles once I finish the interior.

Would you pour the foam without the center deck piece and then add that later?

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Could you get to the remaining wet foam by removing a piece of the bottom, like maybe a 6 inch circle? To answer your question, yes I would pour the foam before replacing the deck. With those strips of plywood epoxied in place it would seem the deck would fit perfectly. They would also provide a little support to the finished deck. You don't want any voids under the deck and making sure there are none before you epoxy the deck back in place would in my opinion be the best solution. I'm not really familiar with your hull so I really don't know if that 45 lbs is significant. I will admit that you will have probably a relatively dry hull compared to all the other 13 hulls of your vintage so maybe you shouldn't worry about it.

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I would like to stay away from cutting through the outside of the hull. The only other thing I could open up would be the starboard rear step, which i assume is foam filled and access the inner hull that way. It would not surprise me to find water there, as there are a couple open holes. That would still leave water on the starboard side of the hull.

Depending on the final numbers mine will loose about 100# of water and there will be around 50# remaining. I know that I can lift the stern of the boat and i can at least roll the boat on it's side and back by myself which i could not do before. I feel pretty confident that i can roll the boat over solo, although if there is another pair of hands around, i won't refuse the help.

I will need to dig out the remaining foam so i can access the edge of the remaining deck. If I am on a roll, i may still add a couple sections of 3/4 plywood to the floor where I think my consoles will end up just to have wood to screw into.

the plywood strips offer an interesting idea on shaping the foam and attaching the deck back into the boat. It would ensure the foam is solid and without voids. It would also ensure the foam doesn't distort the shape of the deck.

Thoughts on opening up the starboard rear step and dig that foam out?

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your comment that states, Depending on the final numbers mine will lose about 100# of water and there will be around 50# remaining.

I don't think you will be happy with that solution. You're doing a major job and you should do it to your satisfaction. I would do whatever is necessary to remove ALL of the wet foam, but don't cut through the outside of the hull. It's easier to rebuild the interior.
This is a job that you have never attempted before, and apparently no one else here has either.All of the advice here is only conjecture, though well meaning and some are good ideas. No matter, you will learn as you go. So get started, think ahead of what you are doing, and you will be successful. Its impossible to get all your ducks in a row on a job like this becuase there are so many unknowns. You will figure it out as you go. Over the years I have done lots of projects like that, with that attitude, and they always turn out successful.

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To completely remove all the wet foam, you would have to remove all the foam. While that is a great goal, i am not sure it's a realistic one, unless i had the shop and the skills Metan has and the clients with the $$ to keep them restoring Whalers. Here is how far this project has come and what I have learned so far
1. Learned to do structural repairs involving foam and resin (starboard hole)
2. Learned to fill and fair the hull (need more practice on this)
3. Learned to spray gelcoat (will get more practice on this later)
4. Learned several techniques for removing floatation foam

The boat was so heavy when I got it that two of us could not really roll it onto the trailer for the outside work. I am sure the friend that helped me roll her over the first time, still has back trouble from the effort. I can now roll the boat onto it's side and back solo. For the record, i have not taken up weight lifting during the time I have owned the boat. I am going to assume since I can brace the boat and successfully grab supports and position them to keep the boat stable, i will be able to roll the boat over and onto the trailer solo when the time comes to regelcoat the outside of the hull.

Once I have removed as much foam as I plan to remove, i will learn more about the following

1. using pourable Urethane foam to fill a large shape
2. More fiberglass work as I secure the deck section back in place
3. gelcoat techniques for replacing the non-skid pattern on Whalers.
4. I will gain more practice spraying gelcoat, as I complete the outside.
5. I am sure I will learn other things, not mentioned here because i don't know I need to learn them yet :)

So far it's been a great journey and it's far from over.

I was grinding out some foam to access about 3 inches of the existing deck so I could attach the two deck pieces together and guess what I found. You got it, more wet foam. I reviewed the project album and I realized this was not only where the huge crack was in the non-skid, but it is also where the opening was in the keel. Sure enough as i was grinding out wet foam, i found the repair I had made to the keel, there should another one forward of that spot. I am now trying to determine if cutting up the remaining deck is the next step. I probably would have done it today but i didn't have a cutoff blade for my Dremel Multimax so it is still attached. It did make me realize that not all the water is located in the stern. Just because the bow is moveable, doesn't mean it's free of water. I also drilled through the cap so i could access the starboard side. There is no way to get a brush down all the way as the hull curves in and the space is too tight. I did realize that I have most of the wet foam out in the stern as there was only 2 or 3 inches of wet foam at the bottom of the hole. The rest of the side was dry as was the port side where i drilled a simular access hole. I will refoam them when i refoam the rest of the boat.

New photo's on the project album.

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I have been dealing with foam and a large open section on the bottom of my boat this past two weekends. One technique that worked well was to tape a layer of plastic tightly over the whole open area and pour foam underneath. The plastic spreads the foam evenly and puffs up slightly higher than the edge. I then sanded it down to level. In cases where it was low, I waited for the foam to cure a little, peeled back the plastic, and poured a little more.

One thought is to remove a second panel in the bow before doing anything with the sides. Most of the remaining weight could be in the bow floor, it seems easier to replace floor foam than gunnel foam, and the weight distribution of the remaining water would be more balanced. You could try it and weigh again before opening the sides or stern.

If you took that route, another thought would be to leave a strip of the floor between the section you have cut out, and a cut in the bow. This would leave you a reference when putting it back together.

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The challenge in refoaming the floor on the 13 foot is the floor isn't flat. I like the plastic idea and was thinking i could wrap the floor pieces in plastic, use them with weights to shape the foam. Once the foam was shaped, I could reattach the floor using CSM.

As for cutting out the floor in the bow, it's a good idea to leave a section of floor for reference. Without foam, i can successfully line up the rear section using the sheer braces as reference. I was actually surprised how easy that was. The challenge is to keep the foam from distorting the deck shape.

I decided that while I had the floor out, i would add some additional mat to the back of the floor where I could. This will help to stiffen the floor and provide additional support.

I was surprised at the different foam densities that are present in the hull. The foam I removed from the gunal is clearly 2# foam that has been allowed to expand completely. It looks and feels just like the 2# foam braces i poured to hold the floor in place. All the foam in the floor is denser where it was restricted from complete expansion.

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I spoke to Chuck Bennett @ Whaler today to get advice on what foam density to use. Based on the fact i will be supporting the floor, he recommended going with the 4# foam over the standard 2# foam. Since I have 16# of the 2# foam, i will use that under the stern and along the sides where structural support of the deck is not required. I do know from digging out the foam, there are a couple foam densities present in the hull. The sides are clearly 2# foam that has been allowed to rise, since the foam i drilled out looks and feels exactly like the support blocks i poured over the weekend. Based on other's experience, the foam in the deck area is more dense than 2# and less dense than 4#, so I am guessing the compression turns the 2# foam into 3# foam in the structural sections of the hull, namely the floor.

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Isn't Life grand when working on your Whaler?
Careful now with winter coming,
You may have to bring your project indoors and find a way to keep going with the repairs...
Am very happy to read that Chuck Bennet is still around for Us to share in his know how.
Say hello from Us at the earliest occasion.
Keep up the good work.Kamie

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All work will stop once winter comes since there is no option for moving the boat to an indoor workshop, i just don't have one ( one reason this project has taken so long). The goal now is to hopefully finish the following before it gets too cold to work

1. remove the remaining foam
2. weigh the hull
3. refoam the hull
4. reattach the floor
5. flip the boat
6. prep for gelcoat

I doubt I will get to spray the gelcoat, unless I get lucky and get 1-4 done in a single weekend. I have about a month of good mid 70's weather to get all the repairs and prep done and still have the right temps to shoot gelcoat. (that's calendar time, not actual work time) There is the potential to do the prep and the gelcoat spray all in a single weekend. I could possibly do both in a single day. Prep is really down to sanding the hull smooth from the mildly successfully gelcoat application last fall and then redoing the application.

Based on the foam discussions, all weight calculations are going to be off and unreliable. There is no way to determine how much the foam should weigh so the fiberglass and foam could be subtracted from the total weight to determine the remaining water. Even my calculation of 50# of water remaining is suspect because I was using 2# foam weights and estimating volume.

Time to estimate and order 4# foam for the floor. I also plan to order mold making rubber so I can practice making a mold of the non-skid.

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It sounds like it would be a good idea to weigh down or brace the floor (the portion that is there now) while pouring so it doesn't push it out. I would stick with small batches so you don't build too much cumulative pressure.

If you get most of the foam in and wind up with a few spots that need additional foam, or it bulges above the edges, it is not too difficult to add a small amount and sand it to shape even if it is curved. Once you have most of the shape from using the the cut out floor piece covered in plastic, it will probably be pretty easy. I had to fill all curved areas and was surprised at how I could shape it.

Long boards help a lot including for curved sections, both to sand and identify highs and lows. I used two long boards, one slightly longer than the open section, which I placed over the length of an open section to measure the gap between the height of the foam and surface of the glass, and one just shorter than the the open section to tell where highs and lows were on the foam. I placed the boards not spanning a curve, but along a horizontal line, like placing a board length-wise inside a half tube.

Hope I am not adding too much detail. But I spent a lot of time recently on a pretty similar situation. At least your boat is light enough to move by hand. Good luck.

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Thankfully it is now. I could push it around on a driveway but I couldn't take it off or put it back on the trailer very easily. Now, it's pretty much a piece of cake, I can even roll it over.

The foam will be poured in small batches, especially since I want to use 2# foam all areas not under the floor proper. I had originally planed to secure the floor back into the boat before pouring the foam under that piece, my tab idea from earlier. My though was that doing that, the foam would form a mechanical bond with the floor piece helping to hold all of that in place. If I switch to wrapping that piece in plastic, using it to shape the foam, I am not sure how to or if it's possible to "attach" the floor to the foam, other than at the edges?

I am also entertaining thoughts of flattening out the floor, since i am now going to remove the forward section. (projects like this always snowball). One of the "issues" with the floor on the older 13 footers is the water pools mid hull and doesn't drain well. At least on this hull.

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You can attach the floor to the foam using resin, and probably a single layer of CSM, or a thin layer of mash, between the foam and floor. I don't think it makes much difference, if any, whether the foam is used to form a bond, or resin/CSM/mash. One thing to watch out for is creating an air pocket between the foam, resin/CSM and the floor. If you apply a small/moderate amount of mash (1/8 inch?) to the back of the floor or on top of the foam, I think it will work. I am actually going to try this this weekend. I will likely use CSM with a couple inches tucked under the edges and mash throughout. I think it will add at most 10 pounds.

I was told by a pro that the step that really matters is the seam along the edges of the panel. Attaching it to the foam is mainly about eliminating voids and getting adhesion across most of the panel. And if attaching the panel only goes so well, you can fair it to what you want. But the seam is really important to get right. i.e. bevel the seam wide and use several layers of glass, e.g. heavy stitch-mat.

Its a learning experience. I figure the more I do on this one, the easier the next one will be.

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Since I have at least a days work to remove the remaining foam, I have time to think about how to put it all back together. The more glass work I can do from under the seam, the better. I don't have a large margin to work with topside if I don't want to regelcoat the entire floor of the boat. I would prefer not too.

keep us posted on the outcome of your weekends work. I am waiting for supplies, so it will be 10 days or so before I am back working on the boat.

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The time has come to figure out how to replace the foam and then reattach the deck. I have a couple hours of grinding out the remaining foam from under the forward deck but then i really want to start pouring tomorrow after lunch. I am considering my options for replacing the forward deck, the rear section i have pretty much figure out. I can bond the center deck section and the remaining deck from the underside, easily as i have plenty of access. The front section, however it seem i will have no choice but attach the panel totally from the topside, grinding away the gelcoat, adding glass and then regelcoat the panel into place. Other ideas?
I did put the stern on a scale and it weighted in at 100#.

The forward section was wet dead center but not overly so. I probably could have left the deck and not removed the foam.

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What condition was the wood in? Did you replace any of it or inject/apply epoxy resin? Are you planning on adding additional wood? I don't know what this involves but my understanding is injecting/encasing the wood in epoxy is a good idea to prevent it from rotting or salvage it if partially rotted.

The way a pro told me to put back a panel when you only have access to one side was to do it similarly to a repair by removing an inch of foam a half inch deep under the edges and fill with mash prior to putting in the panel. Then do what you plan with the seams. I think an extra wide bevel could help as well. I would put a thin layer of mash on the back of the floor when you put it in to avoid air pockets. If the edges aren't quite even when dry-fitted, the mash will help hold them in place. You could screw in small boards on the edges if weights don't hold them in position. Weights worked well in my case (about 100 pounds distributed over a 3 by 1 area).

I suspect the preference for fixing from the inside is more important for repairs on the outside of the hull than the inside since there is so much more force but that is a guess.

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Someone in Australia with a Dell Quay Dory (much the same as a small Whaler) said that he'd cured the problem this way:

"Simple fix is a 5 inch hole cut through the transom, remove the wet material, squirt in some solvent to dissolve/remove any remaining foam, allow to dry and fill the void with foam pool sticks then repair the hole, done in a day

Expanding foan will not provide a lot of support at all, once crushed it will not fully return to it's original size.

Closed cell foam like the stuff in the pool sticks, these will retain their shape provided that are not compressed for months.

As for what to use to remove the old foam, it will depend on it's chemistry.

Most of them will melt if petrol or thinners is applied, neither will effect your fibreglass, there are lots a vehicles with fibreglass fuel tanks going back as far as the Goggomobil.

Acetone will also get rid of it but prolonged contact with fibreglass is not good, it tends to soften the surface after about 12 hours, But does a great job of residue of the melted foam, however is it expensive, so persevere with the petrol or thinners and will eventually remove the residue.

You can speed things up by mechanically removing most of the old foam with scrapers.

The pool sticks definitely work and have been used for many years for this task without problems"

Sounds a bit too good to be true, but then it's clearly worked for him ! Not sure how you'd remove the foam from further forward unless it completely dissolved into mush and then a pressure washer may fetch out the residue. And this must mean that there are no stringers / compartments in the void - no idea about this offhand, maybe Whalers are different from Dell Quays.

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Superaquarama,
It seems that Dell Quay Dory is different from a whaler, especially if the foam can be dissolved by gas. The foam used in a whaler is resistant in solvents, including gas and acetone.

Jack12,
The wood in the hull was in good shape. I removed whats there, although i probably could have left it. The wood is placed on top of a shear brace and the edges are glassed over so only the top against the fiberglass is exposed. Once i get the foam ground out, i will measure for new boards and consider my options for adding them. The challenge is, adding them on the angle to match the floor.

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Maybe try to find someone who does woodworking locally, e,g, a furniture maker, for consult or to hire. Usually they are very skilled at dealing difficult shapes an are not that expensive for small pieces that are 'easy for them'. Or just give it go yourself. Any curves on the cutout floor, or remaining floor, that you could use as a template/guide for the angles/curves? Try making a cardboard template first?

Are you putting in a whole deck or just boards for securing console etc. and/or adding rigidity?

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The boards would be for securing the consoles to the floor. First i need to get the floor back in. I laid down the front deck, but I didn't get enough mash to secure the front seam so it looks like i'll be grinding and glassing from the top. Waiting for that to set so i can tip the boat back on it's side, and try to secure the side seams from below. Easier to work when it's tipped on it's side, beats standing upside down with your head under the deck.

Hoping to get prep work done today and pour foam tomorrow when it's a bit warmer.

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Yes Kamie, if that's been looked at already it must be that Dell Quays use a different type of foam.

Forgive my ignorance as a newbie to the forum and to dories, but what's the usual cause of water getting in in the first place ? As I have a light and presumably dry boat I'd like to keep it that way !

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Are you putting the wood on top of the floor, and attaching to existing wood under the floor, like the boards on the 16s for the RPS?

I am having trouble picturing how you are going about this. Have you completed putting back the floor for the stern?

How did you get access to under the floor? I understand how you could reach in part of the way with the front cut out, but all the way to the back?

fyi I evaluated the results of putting back a 1 foot by 4 foot panel on the bottom of my hull that I did last weekend. Results were not as good as I thought. In fact, I decided to redo. I plan on just laying new glass and fairing instead of reusing the panel. So I hope I didn't send you down the wrong path. I think the mistake I made was putting down a layer of CSM underneath the panel which resulted in large voids despite being weighed down. Using just mash I suspect will work much better. The CSM does nothing for the repair even if it had bonded fully.

Aside from the one edge you have to ground and glass, does it seem in the right position and without voids?

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unsealed screw holes are the prime suspect. On this 13 it was a lot of things, captains chairs installed with no wood backing, no caulk and the stress cracked the fiberglass. A large crack in the deck, left unrepaired and a large hole in the keel, also unrepaired. All that combined added 150# of water to the boat.

what captains chairs do to the deck
http://www.whalercentral.com/userphot...oto_id=812

Keel damage
http://www.whalercentral.com/userphot...oto_id=818

Also check the drain tubes
http://www.whalercentral.com/userphot...oto_id=819

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I got access under the floor by cutting it out. I cut out two large panels. There were two issues putting them back in, both with the front panel. The first is in the front starboard corner of the panel, it wasn't secured and so that corner sticks up. That will need to be ground down and glassed, as will all the seams. The second was attaching the panel to the sheer brace. There are ridges on the underside of the deck, probably acting like fiberglass struts and it wouldn't fit down tight on the shear brace. More grinding and glass work. There will be lots of glass work on the inside floor. Once that is completed, i will probably just spray the deck with new gelcoat

Jack, if you haven't checked out my project album, you should take a look.

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progress was made and lessons learned this weekend and as usual more work too do. I removed the foam in the front and hopefully got as much water out as possible. I can roll the boat around on the grass and I can still tilt it on either side. Solo, i can flip the boat, so i think it's as light as i can make it. I also replaced the floor pieces and secured them. I think this is where i went wrong, I should have poured the foam first, shaped it and then attached the floor. Doing it backwards means that i have voids to fill under the front deck where the foam didn't run well and it means that where i was not careful about volume, I have glass work where the foam pushed up the floor panels. All in all, I still have more foam to pour and then places to clean up. Had camera issues so no current photo's of the foam job. I suspect that by the time I get a reasonably flat floor, i will end up spraying at least the deck portion of the boat with gelcoat. Next time I hope to practice making a mold of the current non-skid pattern which will check one more thing off the list.

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Jeez, Kamie, alarming photos ! But many thanks for sharing them and for the info. Our boat has a tripod ski/wakeboard towing attachment which I'll be removing, so I'm hoping it's ok underneath.

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I can see from your photos how you had access. I misunderstood that you had a center piece removed allowing access to the sides and stern. Bummer on the foam. Hopefully the voids are not too bad. But you know a lot more about how the foam works now which I think is half the goal. One thing about fiberglass it seems is if something doesn't work out the way you thought it would, there are always ways to fix it. Can you drill holes where the voids are and pour in foam? How big are the voids?

My attempts at putting back two panels did not go well. The only right thing to do in my case was to remove them and lay new glass. I only have the single layer of CSM skin in so far and am holding off since I think there will be overlap with a nearby damaged section which I am now grinding back. Posted a couple photos on my personal page of the foamed area, and after laying CSM. It certainly looks better than it did before. Frustrated with the panel experience but not that big of a deal and not giving up. The smaller repairs have all gone well and are encouraging. We'll see how the glass laying goes.

Will be curious to see how you approach the non-skid. I have seen a product for doing this but it is expensive compared to painting in a non-skid material. Interesting idea of molding the current non-skid. Do you know what material you will use to create the mold?

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I drilled a couple holes last weekend and I will finish filling the voids this weekend. Hoping i can get them all filled, without over filling. There will be a lot of grinding and glass work, to get the floor solid and repaired.

As for the non-skid, the plan is to make the mold out of urethane rubber and if that works then practice with some of the white gelcoat i had remaining from the outside of the hull.
I ordered the urethane rubber from US Composits when i ordered the foam. The rubber I got is 60 shore hardness, not sure if it will be too stiff but I should find out quickly.

Clearly i won't be ready for gelcoat, inside or out until spring. If the weather holds, I might get the inside fiberglass work done, but gelcoat needs 75 degrees and it's hit or miss with the days how long the weather will hold.

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thank you for that.