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Need to replace / rebuild my TeleFlex SeaStar II cylinder assembly
VA Whaler	#1  Posted on 05/12/14 - 10:56 AM
Member Personal Page Posts: 335 Comments: 0 Joined: 04/25/13	Boat: 1979 22' Boston Whaler Revenge Engine: 1990 225 HP Yamaha I was able to do a little work on my boat last weekend for the first time in several months and I noticed that I have leaky seals on both ends of my my steering cylinder assembly. Unfortunately the ram is slightly pitted so just replacing the seals won't do me much good long term. I went ahead and removed the cylinder and have it at my house ready for the next step. What that step is, I'm not sure. Cross referencing this page: http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/document.do?docId=731 it appears that my model is the HC 5342 / HC5340 Here is my situation. Since purchasing the boat last spring, I'm still in the process of getting her lake ready. I have not dbeen able to test drive her. I have only had her running on a hose and floated it at the dock. It floats fine so I think the hull is OK and the engine runs fine on a hose but am waiting for the transom to throughly dry before installing my transom drain and now I need to get the steering fixed. I'm not in the financial position to go out and just buy a new steering system for an untested boat. I would at least like to test drive the boat to make sure it will be the boat I expect it to be before investing in a new system. I also want to be safe though.. All that being said, if you were in my shoes would you: 1) Just buy the seals for around $100 and get a season out of them (At least enough to test drive) 2) Send the assembly away for rebuilding or purchase a rebuilt unit --my choice 3) Buy a new steering cylinder. 4) Buy a complete system If you agreee with #2 who would you recomend to rebuild the cylinder or sells rebuilt units? If you have other suggestions please let me know. I'm all ears. Thanks! John
Finnegan	#2  Posted on 05/12/14 - 1:34 PM
Member Posts: 1925 Comments: 16 Joined: 05/02/08	I just did your step # 2. It is not unusual for hydraulic cylinders to leak, and I did not have the knowledge, skills or tools to replace the seals myself. Using Teleflex's website, I found a rebuilder in Boyton Beach FL I believe, sent them an email and received great, fast service. My paperwork is at home, so I can't give you exact information, but I would use them. In my case, I sent them two side mount cylinders for new seals, and as it turned out, one had interior corrosion which made it unserviceable as a complete unit. So out of the two, they put one together and indicated it would be like new, with all good parts. Cost was $180. If yours is original from 1979, they will tell you whether it is serviceable or not. Also have them upgrade it to the newer Bleed Tee fittings, which from 1979 yours will not have. They are a huge improvement in bleeding the system.
VA Whaler	#3  Posted on 05/12/14 - 2:30 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 335 Comments: 0 Joined: 04/25/13	Finnegan, Thanks for the reply. I will definitely check their site and take that route. Fortunately my system is not that old (relatively). The helm bezel is labeled SeaStar II but I noticed that the steering assembly at the engine was labeled just "SeaStar". If I had to take a guess I'd bet it was installed when the engine was installed in the early 90s. I noticed something very interesting after I removed the assembly. It had a 3/16" horizontal gouge taken out of the back of the cylinder that went from just to the port of the center-line of the cylinder all the way to the starboard side. It was as if the cylinder was stationary and the piece that connects the engine to the steering assembly cut that groove into it. I'm thinking something came apart at one point while the boat was underway to generate enough force to cut that groove. It was if someone used a router to cut that groove. No way a mechanic did it while pivoting the engine by hand with the engine disconnected from the steering. I think its just cosmetic but if that is what happened, I would not have wanted to been on the boat when that groove was cut. Amazing what you find when you tear down down an old boat. Thanks again John Edited by VA Whaler on 05/12/14 - 2:33 PM
Finnegan	#4  Posted on 05/12/14 - 4:11 PM
Member Posts: 1925 Comments: 16 Joined: 05/02/08	A SeaStar II helm pump (2.4 displacement) is recommended for a twin engine installation, with twin cylinders. I use such a system on my Outrage 25 with twin 200 EFI Mercs. Unless you want very fast steering, with more effort, I would not use it with a single cylinder. It could be that the whole hydraulic system was after-market fitted to your boat by someone who didn't know what they were doing. For a single system, you want the Sea Star I helm (1.7) or maybe the 2.0 pump. Check the Teleflex website for pump vs cylinder recomendations.
VA Whaler	#5  Posted on 05/12/14 - 4:18 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 335 Comments: 0 Joined: 04/25/13	Finnegan, thanks for that heads-up. I will have a chance to work on the boat again this weekend. I will get as much information about the helm installation as possible and then contact TeleFlex (probably your dealer since they worked out great for you) about my options. I just noticed a sticker on top of the cover so who knows what it really is. Hopefully I can get some information off the back of the helm assembly. With this boat's uncertain history it probably would not hurt to remove it and have it checked out as well. Edited by VA Whaler on 05/12/14 - 4:19 PM
tedious	#6  Posted on 05/13/14 - 12:35 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 1072 Comments: 2 Joined: 09/07/08	John, I had our steering cylinder rebuilt a few years back. We started by sending in the helm pump, which was acting up - it turned out it needed replacing, and the mechanic indicated that I would most likely find the cylinder rod pitted as well, since that is the most likely place for water intrusion. It was pitted, so I had it rebuilt, with a new rod and seals. After all that, the cost ended up being pretty close to a brand new system - and our system was only 7 years old at the time. For your much older unit, you may want to consider simply replacing it. The mechanic recommended changing the steering oil every 2 or 3 years to avoid a recurrence of the problem we had. Tim
VA Whaler	#7  Posted on 05/13/14 - 3:34 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 335 Comments: 0 Joined: 04/25/13	Tim, thanks for that information. I'm really not sure what to do with the helm pump but I'm leaning towards sending it back as well for at least an analysis. I noticed that the fluid that drained out was white-ish red so I bet it had water in the fluid for who knows how long. I noticed when I turned the wheel, the steering system turned the engine OK (on land) but I would occasionally feel a "slip" in the wheel where there was a momentary lapse of resistance. I assumed it was air in the system from the slightly leaky seals at the steering assembly and it might have been but I am not familiar enough with hydraulic systems to know for sure at this point. Thanks again John
gchuba	#8  Posted on 05/13/14 - 8:34 PM
Member Posts: 1675 Comments: 0 Joined: 03/31/13	John, Glad to see you are back to working on your boat. I have been rebuilding hydraulic cylinders for years. Not much to it. The pitting is probably from corrosion and may leave a leak. Emory cloth knocks down the build up. Will still work and might get an annoying drip. The white from water is common from condensation (sitting) and might burn off as the oil heats, probably best to flush the system. Either the rod cylinder is held together by a snap ring or is threaded. take off the snap ring or unscrew the top. Leave the bottom of the cylinder intact/in place and give a yank on the rod. The whole assembly comes out. Write down on a piece of paper the order of assembly as well as the direction of the seals. Remove the top nut of the rod assembly and replace with a rebuild kit. Put back together. A rebuild kit for that dinky cylinder cannot cost that much. I have scratches and dings on hydraulic cylinders form the 70's. Still work just fine. Leaking is from wear on the rod as well as the interior of the cylinder. Pitting more annoying than anything. Pumps generally howl when they go out. Valve leakage usually is displayed by movement of the motor when everything is shut down or movement, without leaking. Pumps and valves, for me, are shop work. Good luck. Garris Yes, after sitting a little air may get in. Keep working it SLOWLY back and forth and it should come back Edited by gchuba on 05/13/14 - 8:49 PM
tedious	#9  Posted on 05/14/14 - 5:39 AM
Member Personal Page Posts: 1072 Comments: 2 Joined: 09/07/08	John, the "slip" was the first thing I noticed in our system. It started happening infrequently when the system was only 3 or 4 years old, and was worse in cold weather. It got worse and worse until on the final trip to the ramp, the boat would only turn in one direction - which made navigation "a little" interesting. It turns out, per the mechanic, that contamination in the fluid had damaged the valves internal to the pump and it was not repairable. I hope your problem is just air, but it sounds like the same situation. Tim
gchuba	#10  Posted on 05/14/14 - 6:41 AM
Member Posts: 1675 Comments: 0 Joined: 03/31/13	Any pump or valve is repairable. They are a series of "O", springs, gaskets, bearings, etc... providing the casings have not been compromised. The worst contaminant is debri/metal filings that damage the rings and the walls. Water not a horrible culprit (rust). Jamming the steering wheel for starboard or port turn is can mess with the internals. A little piece off any of internals can wreak havoc. Gentle use goes a long way for preserving. Before firing up the system, check the cylinders by the motor, if pitted or some rust, polish with some emery cloth. Garris Edited by gchuba on 05/14/14 - 7:00 AM
tedious	#11  Posted on 05/15/14 - 9:58 AM
Member Personal Page Posts: 1072 Comments: 2 Joined: 09/07/08	Garris, you sound like you're familiar with hydraulics, but have you ever worked on one of these Teleflex systems before?
bcoastal	#12  Posted on 05/15/14 - 10:32 AM
Member Posts: 291 Comments: 0 Joined: 08/15/12	I bought the HC5345 on amazon for $350 this year.
gchuba	#13  Posted on 05/15/14 - 6:27 PM
Member Posts: 1675 Comments: 0 Joined: 03/31/13	Tim, I have worked quite a bit with hydraulics. Not specifically with the Teleflex but the philosophy is the same. I personally only work on cylinders, and as stated earlier, usually send the valves and pumps out to be rebuilt. The internals of the pump/valve for that steering box is a complicated bird that I would most likely send out. If I saw a schematic and had a kit in hand, would tackle an obvious fix. There is not much to any cylinder, $10 of rings and gaskets sold for $50/$100 as a rebuild kit. If there is no wall damage or scrapes and you keep the rod smooth you can nurse them a good long time. It is a closed system so the only real place water can get in is the reservoir. Generally through condensation. Maybe some moisture on rod. My Teleflex steering has a single cylinder with the rod out of either side. That means the sealing gasket for movement is in the center of the rod and the 2 ends. Hydraulic flow from the wheel movement creates the oil flow from starboard to port. If the end seals leak, annoying but would work. If one side does not work, probably the valve controlled by the wheel. A lot of times the hardest part of rebuilding a cylinder is getting the rod out without scraping anything. Sometimes with a single rod out of one end of cylinder there is a threaded lock nut on the end of the internal cylinder rod (sometimes locked in with a cotter pin) they take some doing to remove. With a rod coming out of both sides of the cylinder, I would probably get a threaded rod coupling and attach it to one end with an extended bolt on the other side and carefully drive it out. When removing the rod, the casing needs to be secure and you need to give it a good "pop". Stopping and repairing right away goes a long way. Similar to an overheated car. Tow it and get a thermostat. Drive it home and get a motor. Having rust on the rod after non use for a while, the rod should get completely cleaned before firing up and using. A little bit of rust/metal wreaks havoc if it lets loose inside the cylinder. So to John, I would clean the rod ends and work it a bit to see what is really going on. Maybe kit it. If the movement is strong with leakage only on the ends you can "quickie rebuild" and leave the rod alone. To Finnegan, I have seen the quality of your work and postings. I would most definitely consider you very capable of tackling a cylinder. The key is observing burrs or flaws that would damage the new gaskets/seals/rings. Garris edit: If I had some tired cylinders, I would buy the rebuild kit for the high price but take the kit to a good parts man and match them up and save before installing. Edited by gchuba on 05/15/14 - 6:37 PM
MikeF53	#14  Posted on 05/16/14 - 10:48 AM
Member Personal Page Posts: 13 Comments: 0 Joined: 03/29/08	I was watching Ship Shape TV and they had a company on named Boat Steering Rebuilders located in Safety Harbor, FL. They specialize in rebuilding Teleflex Bay Star and Sea Star helms and cylinders. I have never used them, so I am not familiar with the quality of their work. Good luck. Mike Freitag 1961 13' Sport, 2009 Evinrude 30 HP E-TEC
gchuba	#15  Posted on 05/17/14 - 7:47 AM
Member Posts: 1675 Comments: 0 Joined: 03/31/13	I did some referencing on internet with hydraulic steering troubleshooting. Two interesting finds (could have found many more). First was a "YouTube by www.boatinghowto.com Sea Star helm unit". Shows the replacement of "O" rings in pressure relief valves. Shows the easy "fix" for leakage as well as the the "do not's" when putting back. They are not kidding when the say "count the turns of the screw". The second is a trouble shooting guideline, "www.seatechmarineproducts.com Sea Star boat steering technical reference". A more involved trouble shooting guide for steering problems than the standard owners guide. No reference to "water intrusion" lots of reference to dirt and air. There is no voodoo with this concept. Trouble from blockage or oil bypass from failed seals (O ring). A flattened/compromised dinky little rubber ring can shut the system down. To me it is a humbling engineering feat. The turning of the wheel is both a pump and a valved flow control for movements of fluid with very simple components. All a valve is is a plunger with 3 "O" rings. Watch the YouTube video. Garris Tim, without seeing and trouble shooting my guess is you had either "O" ring that was slowly giving out (oil was bypassing the turning of the wheel was not allowing the fluid to the cylinder) or blockage where the fluid was not allowed to leave the opposite side of the cylinder seal. Probably the first. Edited by gchuba on 05/17/14 - 8:47 AM
VA Whaler	#16  Posted on 05/19/14 - 10:41 AM
Member Personal Page Posts: 335 Comments: 0 Joined: 04/25/13	Upon further review the ram has two significant pits (where the engine sat in the same position for 4 years) and was to the point that it would need to be re-chromed and then cut back down to size. I'd then need to buy the new seal kit and reassemble. I'm leaning towards replacing the cylinder with a 5345 but I have a friend who owns a manufacturing plant check into the feasibility of having the ram rebuilt. Jamestown wants $548 for a new cylinder. I'm leaning towards just buying a new one and being done with it but then I go back to trying to do just enough for the sole purpose of initial on-water testing. Does anyone have a recomendation for where to purchase a new cylinder? I'm sort of reluctant to buy from Amazon but I probably should not be.
VA Whaler	#17  Posted on 05/19/14 - 10:51 AM
Member Personal Page Posts: 335 Comments: 0 Joined: 04/25/13	Finnegan, would you mind sending me or posting the contact information for the company you used? Not sure if they can help but it would not hurt for me to ask. Thanks! John
gchuba	#18  Posted on 05/19/14 - 11:17 AM
Member Posts: 1675 Comments: 0 Joined: 03/31/13	John, a coincidence, just sent an email saying hello. Was this cylinder leaking badly before you brought it home? If you polish the pits on the rod cylinder with some emery cloth (like the shoe shine fellows from the old movies) and not leave any protrusions. It would probably work. If the unit sat for 4 years, some of the internal "O" rings in the helm pump are probably brittle. Chances are the front unit needs work. Unfortunately, now might be the time to look into a matching helm pump with a new cylinder. If it sat with oil seepage, the interior walls of the cylinder casing may have rust from condensation. Need to purge the system. Once contaminants are in, tough to remove. Sitting is death on these things. Bad oil could ruin a new cylinder. Garris Edited by gchuba on 05/19/14 - 11:20 AM
VA Whaler	#19  Posted on 05/19/14 - 1:07 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 335 Comments: 0 Joined: 04/25/13	The cylinder walls look OK. I could probably could get a couple years out of it at least. The problem with the rod is that they are not raised areas that I can take down. They are more like engravings, you can catch your fingernail on the rough areas. To top it off, they are perfectly lined up for when running straight ahead. No doubt it would leak in those areas if I polished it up enough to remove the damage. I should probably bite the bullet and get a whole new system. If I scrap the boat, I'd sell the system or get my money's worth back when I sell it. Time after time when I try to piece meal a system back to health I pay more than if I just bought a new system.
gchuba	#20  Posted on 05/19/14 - 7:22 PM
Member Posts: 1675 Comments: 0 Joined: 03/31/13	John, all the rod scrapes would do is leave some leakage. In the universe of things a little sloppy but the system will work providing the dinks in the rod do not trash the seals. Clean it and operate it for a bit before spending big money. If the steering gradually gets worse, look into sending out the entire unit (helm and cylinder) to get rebuilt or get a new one. A responsible shop would let you know if the casings are bad. Garris