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First, thank you very much to the owner/moderator and membership of this forum for allowing me to join. I have been a reader for several months and have truly appreciated the information and expertise resident in this forum.
Second, thank you, members, for your patience and consideration my first post and first question.
I have wanted a Classic Whaler (specifically a Ribside) for most of my adult life; ever since early childhood days growing up on southwestern Michigan (1965-1975) where I experienced boating (on a Whaler) via a generous invitation from family friends on several occasions. Fate has never allowed me the opportunity to search for, find and purchase a Classic Whaler of my own. That fate may be changing in the near future as I am now financially capable and have come across an opportunity that might be either too great to pass up, or one that should definitely be avoided. Though I am a "newb", I understand that there are a great many variables that come into the equation of considering value and condition of a Classic. What I lack is the ability to discern the details that inform either a "buy" or "avoid" decision.
Background: I live in the Northwest, just purchased a home on a 250-acre lake, have a wife and 3 children. I am looking for a recreational BW for use on the lake as well as occasional salt (crabbing and fishing). Though the ownership and care for an "original" Classic Whaler is a venerable undertaking, I personally am probably not prepared for that level of ownership or pursuit and am more interested in a BW that I and the family can use without a lot of worry (in terms of keeping the boat perfectly original). I was raised on/around water. I am an accomplished woodworker (fine furniture), pretty good with my hands (mechanically), but not very knowledgeable on motors/motor-repair.
My Opportunity: So, I have found a 1972 Ribside about an hour from me. It has been in the Northwest for about 5 years, brought here from Texas. That is all I know (as of this point, anyway) about this boat. This example is fitted with twin Mercury 60's (model year 2000), has what appears to be a fiberglass c-console (no fine Teak), a low version of bow rail. It appears to have an above deck fuel tank mounted within the c-console. I have not seen this boat in person yet, but will do so within the next week. It has a new, double axel trailer.
My question, apologetically asked since it has probably been asked many times before: Given my lack of experience, if those members with experience on this forum were headed out to inspect a 1972 Ribside, what are the "main" or "primary" inspectable items, and inspection methods, that would inform a "buy" or "avoid" decision? Again, keeping in mind that I seek recreational use from the boat, vice a "museum quality" all-original example. I guess I am most concerned about hull and transom integrity, the ways that I (as a newb) can make such determination when I go to see it? I will likely not be able to weigh the boat (as one method of checking for soaked foam). I do not own a moisture meter. I thought of hiring a surveyor for $300 bucks, but if there are "bad signs" or "good signs" that I can see myself, I would be VERY appreciative of any advice (inspection points and methods) that might be shared here; things that would be obvious indicators. Thank you very much! Best Regards!
Nice meeting you U boat.
Take a couple of friends with you on this surveying trip.
Preferably the kind that knows a lot about whalers.
Give it a careful look..and decide accordingly.
Price?
Uboat, interesting handle. The best advise I can give you is when you go look at the boat, post pictures. There are many experts, more savvy then I, that from a picture, can tell you what your getting into. So, go have a look, get serial numbers, lots of pictures post them etc., as in many cases, individuals who thought they were buy a BW, found out, it was not a Whaler at all.
The boat in question has been on and off Craigslist repeatedly since last summer, always at an asking price far in excess of what it is worth. The boat appears to be in very rough shape. I do now know anybody in the area who has even bothered to go look at it. I have not.
The console and seat are not Whaler parts so all you are really getting is a hull that needs restoration.
The motors, if they run, could be sold off.
The trailer looks good and is worth some money but may, or may not, be appropriate to that hull.
WOW! Thanks very much for the fast replies. VERY much appreciated!
ritzyrags - Unfortunately, I am new to the NW area and I am not fortunate enough to have such friends (yet)...hopefully, will develop some such friendships in the area to share with.
duf- Tom W Clark, who has graciously provided the last reply (so far), seems well-aware of this boat which is in Seattle. Current asking price is $8999.00. But, in conversations with the seller on the phone, he is "a little flexible" (a little, whatever that means).
Tom W Clark - I really appreciate you pointing out the length of time this has been listed and the high asking price for me. I have no reference point for pricing this Classic Ribside (or any other); no reference point for what remains as original OEM on this Seattle-listed example.
Until reading your post, I thought that (perhaps) the earlier 1971's were Teak console and that maybe in 1972 they (BW) went with fiberglass. Seller claims this is an Outrage II. From your observation of the CC on this one, this is totally an aftermarket cc structure. VERY good to know.
When I asked the seller about the condition of the motors, he indicated having taken it to a local marina where compression testing was (reportedly) favorable and even across cylinders. He did mention a port motor lower-unit replacement during the time of his 5-year ownership. I think if the seller were to agree to a more reasonable price point, I'd certainly want to have the compression testing report on those motors in my hands first, so that I'm sure they're OK.
Seller (again, on phone) was quick to state that the trailer (basically new) is worth $3k, he stated that the motors were worth $2k and the package comes with (2) 60" Scotty downriggers (approximately $550 each).
In summary, seller stated on the phone that his asking-price-point on the boat (less motors, trailer and accessories) was really in the $3k range. For me, I see the value as a whole package and, as I just noted, I have no reference point. What should this 1972 Ribside with non OEM c-console be more realistically priced at, in your opinion? If the transom and hull on this one turn out to be solid (I know, big "if"), what would be reasonable, $6k? Half asking ($4k)?
(moderator note: changed the abbreviated years to the full 4 digit years. Please read Guidelines on front page.)
I don't blame the seller for what he claims, but the reality is the trailer is worth $1500-$2000, the motors are worth $1500-$2000 for the pair and the downriggers are worth $550 *for the pair*
That leaves a value of over $4,000 on the hull alone at his asking price and that's not happening.
The hull's worth really depends on its condition and it would have to be seen in person to gauge that, but the photos and description leave me with little hope.
As a point of comparison, I have a brother-in-law back East who bought an Outrage 21 like this on a galvanized trailer with a sick, but repairable Evinrude 150 from the late 1980s. He paid $2250 for the package and it still has its original gel coat today, though the boat has been extensively worked on and repowered.
Those Ribsides are very cool hulls.....,even if you purchased the boat for $6000 you will still be putting quite a bit more $ into it.
The boat needs some love - You'll know when you see it person, your call if you have, and want to put the time and & money into it...if you must have a Ribside then haggle with the guy and get to work ; )
Maybe keep your eyes open for another that's ready to go -Life is short,get you and your family on the water this summer...sound like you have a great place to create some Whaler memories..
Just for comparison, I purchased my 1977 Outrage 21 locally a little under two years ago, also on a nearly new trailer. It had a good running but older Suzuki 200, a new under deck fuel tank and the gelcoat was in much better shape than the boat in the advertisement, but it had no pilot's seat. It has cleaned up nicely, but is not a floating museum exhibit. I paid about $5K for the package, but will be repowering this year.
I believe it would be a costly mistake to buy that boat. Too many of the key, almost impossible to replace, components are missing, to bring it back as originally configured, and which accordingly, will never make it worth much.
As Tom says, all that is being purchased is a poor condition bare hull, even though the engines could be rebuilt/restored to like new condition, another expense. Actually, the Merc 60 HP 2-strokes are excellent, reliable and quiet running engines and may be worth the restoration work. But I would check on the installation and rigging work. I've seen some real butcher jobs on putting twins on these hulls.
Ribsides are restorable if all of the original components remain, although it almost takes the skills of a professional boat restoration shop, like Metan Marine or Nautical Lumber, to do it, and with very high cost. Re-gelcoating a hull like that is a big job and labor intensive expense.
In my estimation, the following components need to be there for a Ribside accurate reproduction, and to make a purchase a wise buy:
1. Original high profile bow rail - no drawings exist for replacement, and used/loose ones are difficult to find, if at all. Fittings where stantions penetrate the topside hull are no longer available, but may be possible to locate with some difficulty.
2. Teak bow locker cover - This can be reproduced if a model can be found. Nautical Lumber may be able to do it.
3. Teak bow deck. This can be fabricated from new wood if an old one can be located for patterning. I had to make one of these for mine, and have a drawing.
4. Original teak console top, and fiberglass base, with shelf and access door. This absolutely key component is practically impossible to find loose as a whole unit.
5. Pilot/cooler seat from Outrage I, or RPS seat from Outrage II. Easier to source, especially the RPS.
6. Center console rail. No pattern exists, but could be reproduced from an existing rail. Impossible to find loose. The windscreen that fits this console rail is readily available from Mills, for $350.
7. Under gunwale "ceiling boards". 5 Mahogany boards covering the inside gunwales. With patterns from an existing boat, these can be reproduced, at considerable expense and effort.
8. The side grab rails can be be sourced locally fairly easily. About $200/pair.
9. Stern rail - no pattern exists, but could be fabricated from existing rail model. Attachment fittings could be a problem.
Now some may be happy with a boat without all these items, but they are what makes a Ribside complete. On the boat in question, it appears almost all of those components are missing.
As for the hull, look for soft bow deck or stern quarter decks. These are balsa cored, and if bad are a major, dirty job to repair. Avoid a boat with these problems. Later 19 and 21 Outrage/Revenge could also have this soft deck problem.
The boat has no internal fuel tank, a big plus. Nothing to go bad. It also only has one thru hull for the stern sump drain. It's about 15" long, so be sure it's sound. When in the water, there is ALWAYS water in that tube. This is the boat's only source of water into the hull, other than transom bolt holes.
Check for torn up interior transoms from poor engine installations. The transom is shallow, and many installers did not know how to handle this, and cut into the foam to access lower engine bolts. There could be a lot of damage in there which could weaken the transom and let water into the foam.
You can see mine on the personal website link, although it is not restored. Except for the vernish work, I found it that way and just cleaned it up and installed the classic power, new keel roller trailer and Mills canvas.
Thanks, Tom! Thanks for correcting, and sorry for abbreviating the years.
I understand your point completely, I think. At the upper and lower end of considering the trailer, motors and accessories together, the Ribside's hull alone (per this seller) would be priced at either $5,400 (high side) and $4,400 low side, just for hull. Even if hull and transom condition were solid, due to the non-OEM condition and bad cover-paint (badly flaking away) on top of what might remain of gel coat, the hull (alone) sounds like it might not be worth much more than $2,000, if that.
A much better price point, for package, would likely be in the range of $5,000. Thank you, Rockypoint, for sharing your experience and figures for the 1977.
Now, I'm debating if it is even worth the time to go check it out. I'm over on the Kitsap Penninsula side of things and so...not sure. Maybe it is worth grabbing a bunch of photos, a serial number if available/visible and posting for view/consideration. I guess the educational value, at very least, might be worth the 1.5 hour drive and $20 in gas to go.
huckelberry - you've noted my achilles-heel...can't let my emotion for the Ribside get "the better" of my better judgement. Without a moisture meter, maybe the tapping method on the transom will give me some clues. Though, I'm not sure I would know the difference between a good tap and a bad tap sound. Perhaps if I do get some photos, others here can discern the clues. I checked out your personal page, huckelberry, and can see what you went through on that transom job; looks like a lot of hours spent voiding and filling.
jvz - Thanks for making a very good point. Life is short. Need to get the family on the water. I plan to get the family out there this summer. This Seattle-listed Ribside would actually be a total luxury, the fulfillment of a childhood-dream really. I already have a worthy boat that I am currently re-powering for family use this summer. It is quite a unique craft, a former US Navy boat (hence my member moniker, duf). It is boat number 4 of 10 boats contracted by a group within the Navy for build in 1996. Actually, if I may draw such a comparison on this specialized forum, I think the Navy engineers developed it off of the BW Guardian concept, a commercial Outrage on Navy steroids. If I figure out how to post pictures, some here may find it interesting...if only for the BW hull shape/design comparison. It's only drawback for me is...its not a BW Ribside.
I totally understand fullfilling a childhood dream - Which is why it would be worth the 1.5 hr drive & the $20 in fuel to check it out in person, armed with all the info mentioned above - Pursue until you know.
My buddy Dave is doing the same thing with an 1982 Montauk. He scored it cheap, hull & deck are in great shape. it needs love so he sold the motor and we stripped the boat to a bare hull....now it's finally with Cassis, a legendary Fiberglass/Gelcoat guy here in Austin. Spending more time & $ than expected, but Dave has admired Whalers his whole life and now he has one...It's great to see him so excited!
He will be with me next time we invade Duf's place!!
I understand your attraction to the Ribsides. They are just so darn cool looking! As Tom has indicated, it has been on Craigslist quite a while. There is a reason for that.
Though all boats could be pessimistically characterized as "holes in the water that you pour money into", this boat is simply put, a money pit. If you were in a different situation, say retired and had deep pockets and wanted a project to occupy yourself for a while, this might be the right boat. That being said, this does not seem to be your situation.
Taking the time to see the boat in person would be educational. It would up your personal experience if nothing else. Whether it is worth your time or not is the question. I would like to go see it, but not bad enough to burn up the time (I am at the south end of Puget Sound, Shelton).
Concerning your current boat, I would like to see pictures of it. It sounds like a pretty cool boat.
Now to take a realistic take on the prospect of a dumptruck's availability to be close enough to be a workable opportunity.
Seems that a lot of hype is being promoted lately about this very specific model.
(They are all; if not mostly; terrific models)
And to address the very specific list of verifiable obstacles mentioned by Larry, a member in good standing here.
I will ask a simple question..
Unless the Ribside in question was "Time Capsuled"
What shape do you expect a 43 year old fiberglass hull to realistically be in..today?
To take on a project of this amplitude will bring the best or the worst of personal manual and artistic talent.
That is why most of Us will rely on the contracted and paid skills from hopefully proven sources to bring the desired results when buying into a refit of that category.
For a small minority of us "Whaler owners";that will buy and invest is several hundreds of hours of personal manual labor and (Mucho Dineros) or several thousands of $ spent on materials alone;
The quality time spent in the manual pride in "making it right" can not be replaced by buying the hopefully turnkey unit for.. a lot of us Whaler owner
Please let us not discourage the Curious Minds among us and excel in dwelling on the negative; as a rule; and to pass on the rare opportunity to enjoy active manual labor in making the acquaintance of a premium Classic Whaler project.
The Classic Whaler 18 is another premium project that will be worth of attention.
The Montauks are a chapter in themselves.
The thirteen has already been a huge and popular choice among refit enthusiasts.
Your personal preferences will always warrant a bit of driving to view a prospect Whaler sale.
Edited by ritzyrags on 03/04/14 - 8:57 PM
Dont lie
Dont Cheat
And dont give up..
Uboat-I've been following that ribside for some time.
I am 50 miles North in Everett/Marysville.
Look for an Idaho or Montana lake boat. I picked up a very nice (7/10) 1977 Montauk, with the original 1979 Johnson 70 Hp "Looper" 3 cylinder 2 stroke....price was 1/3 the ask for similar age and power in the Seattle market. All it took was a road trip to Boise... my trailer has some issues I am working, but I and the wife will be out whale watching again soon. That 35 year old motor gets her on plane fast, even with 5 onboard. With two people (approx 500 lbs), 24 gallons of gas and a friend on a 5 ft diameter pull toy we hit 32 on the Gps. They are out there, just not in metro Puget Sound..
One of the most important pre-purchase inspection items to attend to with the BW21 "ribside" is to tap the bottom area below the waterline, to determine if there is separation. Use a small ball-peen hammer; when tapping, listen for hollow sound. Separation is defined as foam losing its bond to the interior fiberglass. The area of the hull most prone to separation on the BW21 is left and/or right side of the keel, approximately 18-36 inches forward from transom.
I have inspected three BW21 ribsides in the last 12 months and found varying degrees of separation in the noted areas.
If you find separation of the hull, it will need to be repaired.
If you operate a ribside that has separation on the bottom, the integrity of the hull can diminish over time, especially if you operate the boat at high speeds with a large horsepower outboard motor.
