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Wet Foam - what to do?
kamie	#81  Posted on 09/01/13 - 4:12 PM
Member Personal Page Project Albums Posts: 2975 Comments: 3 Joined: 11/04/05	To completely remove all the wet foam, you would have to remove all the foam. While that is a great goal, i am not sure it's a realistic one, unless i had the shop and the skills Metan has and the clients with the $$ to keep them restoring Whalers. Here is how far this project has come and what I have learned so far 1. Learned to do structural repairs involving foam and resin (starboard hole) 2. Learned to fill and fair the hull (need more practice on this) 3. Learned to spray gelcoat (will get more practice on this later) 4. Learned several techniques for removing floatation foam The boat was so heavy when I got it that two of us could not really roll it onto the trailer for the outside work. I am sure the friend that helped me roll her over the first time, still has back trouble from the effort. I can now roll the boat onto it's side and back solo. For the record, i have not taken up weight lifting during the time I have owned the boat. I am going to assume since I can brace the boat and successfully grab supports and position them to keep the boat stable, i will be able to roll the boat over and onto the trailer solo when the time comes to regelcoat the outside of the hull. Once I have removed as much foam as I plan to remove, i will learn more about the following 1. using pourable Urethane foam to fill a large shape 2. More fiberglass work as I secure the deck section back in place 3. gelcoat techniques for replacing the non-skid pattern on Whalers. 4. I will gain more practice spraying gelcoat, as I complete the outside. 5. I am sure I will learn other things, not mentioned here because i don't know I need to learn them yet :) So far it's been a great journey and it's far from over. I was grinding out some foam to access about 3 inches of the existing deck so I could attach the two deck pieces together and guess what I found. You got it, more wet foam. I reviewed the project album and I realized this was not only where the huge crack was in the non-skid, but it is also where the opening was in the keel. Sure enough as i was grinding out wet foam, i found the repair I had made to the keel, there should another one forward of that spot. I am now trying to determine if cutting up the remaining deck is the next step. I probably would have done it today but i didn't have a cutoff blade for my Dremel Multimax so it is still attached. It did make me realize that not all the water is located in the stern. Just because the bow is moveable, doesn't mean it's free of water. I also drilled through the cap so i could access the starboard side. There is no way to get a brush down all the way as the hull curves in and the space is too tight. I did realize that I have most of the wet foam out in the stern as there was only 2 or 3 inches of wet foam at the bottom of the hole. The rest of the side was dry as was the port side where i drilled a simular access hole. I will refoam them when i refoam the rest of the boat. New photo's on the project album.
jack12	#82  Posted on 09/02/13 - 7:24 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 28 Comments: 1 Joined: 08/12/12	I have been dealing with foam and a large open section on the bottom of my boat this past two weekends. One technique that worked well was to tape a layer of plastic tightly over the whole open area and pour foam underneath. The plastic spreads the foam evenly and puffs up slightly higher than the edge. I then sanded it down to level. In cases where it was low, I waited for the foam to cure a little, peeled back the plastic, and poured a little more. One thought is to remove a second panel in the bow before doing anything with the sides. Most of the remaining weight could be in the bow floor, it seems easier to replace floor foam than gunnel foam, and the weight distribution of the remaining water would be more balanced. You could try it and weigh again before opening the sides or stern. If you took that route, another thought would be to leave a strip of the floor between the section you have cut out, and a cut in the bow. This would leave you a reference when putting it back together.
kamie	#83  Posted on 09/03/13 - 6:20 AM
Member Personal Page Project Albums Posts: 2975 Comments: 3 Joined: 11/04/05	The challenge in refoaming the floor on the 13 foot is the floor isn't flat. I like the plastic idea and was thinking i could wrap the floor pieces in plastic, use them with weights to shape the foam. Once the foam was shaped, I could reattach the floor using CSM. As for cutting out the floor in the bow, it's a good idea to leave a section of floor for reference. Without foam, i can successfully line up the rear section using the sheer braces as reference. I was actually surprised how easy that was. The challenge is to keep the foam from distorting the deck shape. I decided that while I had the floor out, i would add some additional mat to the back of the floor where I could. This will help to stiffen the floor and provide additional support. I was surprised at the different foam densities that are present in the hull. The foam I removed from the gunal is clearly 2# foam that has been allowed to expand completely. It looks and feels just like the 2# foam braces i poured to hold the floor in place. All the foam in the floor is denser where it was restricted from complete expansion.
kamie	#84  Posted on 09/03/13 - 10:27 AM
Member Personal Page Project Albums Posts: 2975 Comments: 3 Joined: 11/04/05	I spoke to Chuck Bennett @ Whaler today to get advice on what foam density to use. Based on the fact i will be supporting the floor, he recommended going with the 4# foam over the standard 2# foam. Since I have 16# of the 2# foam, i will use that under the stern and along the sides where structural support of the deck is not required. I do know from digging out the foam, there are a couple foam densities present in the hull. The sides are clearly 2# foam that has been allowed to rise, since the foam i drilled out looks and feels exactly like the support blocks i poured over the weekend. Based on other's experience, the foam in the deck area is more dense than 2# and less dense than 4#, so I am guessing the compression turns the 2# foam into 3# foam in the structural sections of the hull, namely the floor.
ritzyrags	#85  Posted on 09/03/13 - 11:40 AM
Member Project Albums Posts: 1003 Comments: 36 Joined: 06/18/08	Isn't Life grand when working on your Whaler? Careful now with winter coming, You may have to bring your project indoors and find a way to keep going with the repairs... Am very happy to read that Chuck Bennet is still around for Us to share in his know how. Say hello from Us at the earliest occasion. Keep up the good work.Kamie Dont lie Dont Cheat And dont give up..
kamie	#86  Posted on 09/03/13 - 12:59 PM
Member Personal Page Project Albums Posts: 2975 Comments: 3 Joined: 11/04/05	ritzyrags wrote: Careful now with winter coming, You may have to bring your project indoors and find a way to keep going with the repairs... All work will stop once winter comes since there is no option for moving the boat to an indoor workshop, i just don't have one ( one reason this project has taken so long). The goal now is to hopefully finish the following before it gets too cold to work 1. remove the remaining foam 2. weigh the hull 3. refoam the hull 4. reattach the floor 5. flip the boat 6. prep for gelcoat I doubt I will get to spray the gelcoat, unless I get lucky and get 1-4 done in a single weekend. I have about a month of good mid 70's weather to get all the repairs and prep done and still have the right temps to shoot gelcoat. (that's calendar time, not actual work time) There is the potential to do the prep and the gelcoat spray all in a single weekend. I could possibly do both in a single day. Prep is really down to sanding the hull smooth from the mildly successfully gelcoat application last fall and then redoing the application. Based on the foam discussions, all weight calculations are going to be off and unreliable. There is no way to determine how much the foam should weigh so the fiberglass and foam could be subtracted from the total weight to determine the remaining water. Even my calculation of 50# of water remaining is suspect because I was using 2# foam weights and estimating volume. Time to estimate and order 4# foam for the floor. I also plan to order mold making rubber so I can practice making a mold of the non-skid.
jack12	#87  Posted on 09/03/13 - 5:32 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 28 Comments: 1 Joined: 08/12/12	It sounds like it would be a good idea to weigh down or brace the floor (the portion that is there now) while pouring so it doesn't push it out. I would stick with small batches so you don't build too much cumulative pressure. If you get most of the foam in and wind up with a few spots that need additional foam, or it bulges above the edges, it is not too difficult to add a small amount and sand it to shape even if it is curved. Once you have most of the shape from using the the cut out floor piece covered in plastic, it will probably be pretty easy. I had to fill all curved areas and was surprised at how I could shape it. Long boards help a lot including for curved sections, both to sand and identify highs and lows. I used two long boards, one slightly longer than the open section, which I placed over the length of an open section to measure the gap between the height of the foam and surface of the glass, and one just shorter than the the open section to tell where highs and lows were on the foam. I placed the boards not spanning a curve, but along a horizontal line, like placing a board length-wise inside a half tube. Hope I am not adding too much detail. But I spent a lot of time recently on a pretty similar situation. At least your boat is light enough to move by hand. Good luck.
kamie	#88  Posted on 09/04/13 - 10:05 AM
Member Personal Page Project Albums Posts: 2975 Comments: 3 Joined: 11/04/05	jack12 wrote: At least your boat is light enough to move by hand. Good luck. Thankfully it is now. I could push it around on a driveway but I couldn't take it off or put it back on the trailer very easily. Now, it's pretty much a piece of cake, I can even roll it over. The foam will be poured in small batches, especially since I want to use 2# foam all areas not under the floor proper. I had originally planed to secure the floor back into the boat before pouring the foam under that piece, my tab idea from earlier. My though was that doing that, the foam would form a mechanical bond with the floor piece helping to hold all of that in place. If I switch to wrapping that piece in plastic, using it to shape the foam, I am not sure how to or if it's possible to "attach" the floor to the foam, other than at the edges? I am also entertaining thoughts of flattening out the floor, since i am now going to remove the forward section. (projects like this always snowball). One of the "issues" with the floor on the older 13 footers is the water pools mid hull and doesn't drain well. At least on this hull. Edited by kamie on 09/04/13 - 10:09 AM
jack12	#89  Posted on 09/04/13 - 5:54 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 28 Comments: 1 Joined: 08/12/12	You can attach the floor to the foam using resin, and probably a single layer of CSM, or a thin layer of mash, between the foam and floor. I don't think it makes much difference, if any, whether the foam is used to form a bond, or resin/CSM/mash. One thing to watch out for is creating an air pocket between the foam, resin/CSM and the floor. If you apply a small/moderate amount of mash (1/8 inch?) to the back of the floor or on top of the foam, I think it will work. I am actually going to try this this weekend. I will likely use CSM with a couple inches tucked under the edges and mash throughout. I think it will add at most 10 pounds. I was told by a pro that the step that really matters is the seam along the edges of the panel. Attaching it to the foam is mainly about eliminating voids and getting adhesion across most of the panel. And if attaching the panel only goes so well, you can fair it to what you want. But the seam is really important to get right. i.e. bevel the seam wide and use several layers of glass, e.g. heavy stitch-mat. Its a learning experience. I figure the more I do on this one, the easier the next one will be.
kamie	#90  Posted on 09/04/13 - 7:34 PM
Member Personal Page Project Albums Posts: 2975 Comments: 3 Joined: 11/04/05	Since I have at least a days work to remove the remaining foam, I have time to think about how to put it all back together. The more glass work I can do from under the seam, the better. I don't have a large margin to work with topside if I don't want to regelcoat the entire floor of the boat. I would prefer not too. keep us posted on the outcome of your weekends work. I am waiting for supplies, so it will be 10 days or so before I am back working on the boat.
kamie	#91  Posted on 09/13/13 - 3:53 PM
Member Personal Page Project Albums Posts: 2975 Comments: 3 Joined: 11/04/05	The time has come to figure out how to replace the foam and then reattach the deck. I have a couple hours of grinding out the remaining foam from under the forward deck but then i really want to start pouring tomorrow after lunch. I am considering my options for replacing the forward deck, the rear section i have pretty much figure out. I can bond the center deck section and the remaining deck from the underside, easily as i have plenty of access. The front section, however it seem i will have no choice but attach the panel totally from the topside, grinding away the gelcoat, adding glass and then regelcoat the panel into place. Other ideas? I did put the stern on a scale and it weighted in at 100#. The forward section was wet dead center but not overly so. I probably could have left the deck and not removed the foam. Edited by kamie on 09/13/13 - 3:56 PM
jack12	#92  Posted on 09/13/13 - 6:34 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 28 Comments: 1 Joined: 08/12/12	What condition was the wood in? Did you replace any of it or inject/apply epoxy resin? Are you planning on adding additional wood? I don't know what this involves but my understanding is injecting/encasing the wood in epoxy is a good idea to prevent it from rotting or salvage it if partially rotted. The way a pro told me to put back a panel when you only have access to one side was to do it similarly to a repair by removing an inch of foam a half inch deep under the edges and fill with mash prior to putting in the panel. Then do what you plan with the seams. I think an extra wide bevel could help as well. I would put a thin layer of mash on the back of the floor when you put it in to avoid air pockets. If the edges aren't quite even when dry-fitted, the mash will help hold them in place. You could screw in small boards on the edges if weights don't hold them in position. Weights worked well in my case (about 100 pounds distributed over a 3 by 1 area). I suspect the preference for fixing from the inside is more important for repairs on the outside of the hull than the inside since there is so much more force but that is a guess.
Superaquarama	#93  Posted on 09/14/13 - 3:06 AM
Member Posts: 20 Comments: 0 Joined: 09/13/13	Someone in Australia with a Dell Quay Dory (much the same as a small Whaler) said that he'd cured the problem this way: "Simple fix is a 5 inch hole cut through the transom, remove the wet material, squirt in some solvent to dissolve/remove any remaining foam, allow to dry and fill the void with foam pool sticks then repair the hole, done in a day Expanding foan will not provide a lot of support at all, once crushed it will not fully return to it's original size. Closed cell foam like the stuff in the pool sticks, these will retain their shape provided that are not compressed for months. As for what to use to remove the old foam, it will depend on it's chemistry. Most of them will melt if petrol or thinners is applied, neither will effect your fibreglass, there are lots a vehicles with fibreglass fuel tanks going back as far as the Goggomobil. Acetone will also get rid of it but prolonged contact with fibreglass is not good, it tends to soften the surface after about 12 hours, But does a great job of residue of the melted foam, however is it expensive, so persevere with the petrol or thinners and will eventually remove the residue. You can speed things up by mechanically removing most of the old foam with scrapers. The pool sticks definitely work and have been used for many years for this task without problems" Sounds a bit too good to be true, but then it's clearly worked for him ! Not sure how you'd remove the foam from further forward unless it completely dissolved into mush and then a pressure washer may fetch out the residue. And this must mean that there are no stringers / compartments in the void - no idea about this offhand, maybe Whalers are different from Dell Quays.
kamie	#94  Posted on 09/14/13 - 5:05 AM
Member Personal Page Project Albums Posts: 2975 Comments: 3 Joined: 11/04/05	Superaquarama, It seems that Dell Quay Dory is different from a whaler, especially if the foam can be dissolved by gas. The foam used in a whaler is resistant in solvents, including gas and acetone. Jack12, The wood in the hull was in good shape. I removed whats there, although i probably could have left it. The wood is placed on top of a shear brace and the edges are glassed over so only the top against the fiberglass is exposed. Once i get the foam ground out, i will measure for new boards and consider my options for adding them. The challenge is, adding them on the angle to match the floor.
jack12	#95  Posted on 09/14/13 - 7:10 AM
Member Personal Page Posts: 28 Comments: 1 Joined: 08/12/12	Maybe try to find someone who does woodworking locally, e,g, a furniture maker, for consult or to hire. Usually they are very skilled at dealing difficult shapes an are not that expensive for small pieces that are 'easy for them'. Or just give it go yourself. Any curves on the cutout floor, or remaining floor, that you could use as a template/guide for the angles/curves? Try making a cardboard template first? Are you putting in a whole deck or just boards for securing console etc. and/or adding rigidity?
kamie	#96  Posted on 09/14/13 - 11:01 AM
Member Personal Page Project Albums Posts: 2975 Comments: 3 Joined: 11/04/05	The boards would be for securing the consoles to the floor. First i need to get the floor back in. I laid down the front deck, but I didn't get enough mash to secure the front seam so it looks like i'll be grinding and glassing from the top. Waiting for that to set so i can tip the boat back on it's side, and try to secure the side seams from below. Easier to work when it's tipped on it's side, beats standing upside down with your head under the deck. Hoping to get prep work done today and pour foam tomorrow when it's a bit warmer.
Superaquarama	#97  Posted on 09/14/13 - 2:18 PM
Member Posts: 20 Comments: 0 Joined: 09/13/13	Yes Kamie, if that's been looked at already it must be that Dell Quays use a different type of foam. Forgive my ignorance as a newbie to the forum and to dories, but what's the usual cause of water getting in in the first place ? As I have a light and presumably dry boat I'd like to keep it that way !
jack12	#98  Posted on 09/14/13 - 3:06 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 28 Comments: 1 Joined: 08/12/12	Are you putting the wood on top of the floor, and attaching to existing wood under the floor, like the boards on the 16s for the RPS? I am having trouble picturing how you are going about this. Have you completed putting back the floor for the stern? How did you get access to under the floor? I understand how you could reach in part of the way with the front cut out, but all the way to the back? fyi I evaluated the results of putting back a 1 foot by 4 foot panel on the bottom of my hull that I did last weekend. Results were not as good as I thought. In fact, I decided to redo. I plan on just laying new glass and fairing instead of reusing the panel. So I hope I didn't send you down the wrong path. I think the mistake I made was putting down a layer of CSM underneath the panel which resulted in large voids despite being weighed down. Using just mash I suspect will work much better. The CSM does nothing for the repair even if it had bonded fully. Aside from the one edge you have to ground and glass, does it seem in the right position and without voids?
kamie	#99  Posted on 09/14/13 - 3:22 PM
Member Personal Page Project Albums Posts: 2975 Comments: 3 Joined: 11/04/05	unsealed screw holes are the prime suspect. On this 13 it was a lot of things, captains chairs installed with no wood backing, no caulk and the stress cracked the fiberglass. A large crack in the deck, left unrepaired and a large hole in the keel, also unrepaired. All that combined added 150# of water to the boat. what captains chairs do to the deck http://www.whalercentral.com/userphot...oto_id=812 Keel damage http://www.whalercentral.com/userphot...oto_id=818 Also check the drain tubes http://www.whalercentral.com/userphot...oto_id=819
kamie	#100  Posted on 09/14/13 - 4:18 PM
Member Personal Page Project Albums Posts: 2975 Comments: 3 Joined: 11/04/05	I got access under the floor by cutting it out. I cut out two large panels. There were two issues putting them back in, both with the front panel. The first is in the front starboard corner of the panel, it wasn't secured and so that corner sticks up. That will need to be ground down and glassed, as will all the seams. The second was attaching the panel to the sheer brace. There are ridges on the underside of the deck, probably acting like fiberglass struts and it wouldn't fit down tight on the shear brace. More grinding and glass work. There will be lots of glass work on the inside floor. Once that is completed, i will probably just spray the deck with new gelcoat Jack, if you haven't checked out my project album, you should take a look.