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Wet Foam - what to do?
jack12	#61  Posted on 08/18/13 - 5:46 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 28 Comments: 1 Joined: 08/12/12	Kamie, One thought on how to pour the foam with the least waste is to cover a large piece of cardboard in wax paper, or tape, and tape the cardboard to the floor over the cutout section. Maybe do a third at a time with bow up. Or use some form of flexible plastic sheets which may give a much better approximation of the original floor shape. It probably doesn't matter if the foam sticks to it or not. I have done some foaming recently and adding foam to previously added foam works fine. You can keep adding it until the space has filled. Pouring small quantities until you get familiar with it seems key. Also, if you have an electric sander with a vac attachment it works great for sanding the foam. There is a 1960s 17 hull redone by metan with a few pics of foam under floor replacement. All the work they used to have on their site is still on youtube. They have a channel. Note they use a metal snow shovel to remove foam. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERbPJ_xxH6o&list=PLlDXFFy4XX7Xe0MOJxgTEyNsmw9irKRME I am not sure if we can refer people to businesses on here but I found a great price on foam at a place called mertons fiberglass. Their prices on everything are very good. http://www.mertons.com/Floatation/index.html Personally I find attempting things like this myself rewarding, albeit requiring a lot of patience. Good luck.
kamie	#62  Posted on 08/18/13 - 7:27 PM
Member Personal Page Project Albums Posts: 2975 Comments: 3 Joined: 11/04/05	As I am grinding out the foam, i have a lot of time to consider how I will put it back in, fresh and dry. My current thought is to tilt the boat on it's stern and fill the stern, slightly (couple inches past the cut line. I will probably wrap the existing fiberglass in plastic wrap held with blue painters tape to prevent spills and be cautious at over filling. I will do the same with the port and starboard sides,. It will be easier to fill with the boat tipped on it's side. Once that is done, I will hollow out the foam below the edges, and work resin and mat around the edges to bond the sections back together. Once that is set, i should be able to fill under the deck, using small batches of foam. The foam should seek the path of least resistance and I hope won't distort the deck. I think small will be the watch word of the process. The only thing i might change is to bond the fiberglass mat to the outside edges of the cut prior to foaming. Disclaimer: Since i have at least 1 maybe 2 days of foam grinding these plans could change. Thanks for the link, I have the foam, hopefully i measured right and won't be too short. I get my foam at http://www.uscomposites.com/index.htmlindex.html
tothemax	#63  Posted on 08/19/13 - 10:04 AM
Member Personal Page Posts: 231 Comments: 0 Joined: 08/13/11	Just adding to the mix here, last year on my 18' BW in Clearwater suggested I drill 1/4" holes every 10" along the transom and let it drain over the winter. I did that and although it pretty much dripped up to the day I plugged the holes once she went back in the water she still sits low. It looks like the only way to fix a wet boat is to go through the work Kamie is doing or live with it. I feel better by at least giving it a try. I need to do some work on my tank cover and at that time I'll have access to the tank coffin and may decide to see what the foam in there is like. But at the moment it's far more work than my schedule can handle. The good news is that with the repairs I've done since buying the boat the condition seems to have stabilized and not geting any wetter. More power to you Kamie... 1987 Guardian 18 \ 1987 Evinrude 150
kamie	#64  Posted on 08/19/13 - 6:33 PM
Member Personal Page Project Albums Posts: 2975 Comments: 3 Joined: 11/04/05	I think you have to define what is a "wet boat"? 150# of water in an 18 Outrage where you have a light boat, but a high HP engine is different than having 150# of water in a hull that should be only 250# I could have closed up the 13 and gone boating but that would have defeated the purpose of a project boat i can learn repairs on. For what I want to use the boat for, it really would have been fine, running in the creek or bass/snakehead fishing. As for schedule, there is always something getting in the way, especially if you actually have a boat you can use so you go out fishing rather than work on the project. I would personally worry less about the foam around your gas tank and more about making sure that all the screw holes were filled and the glass was solid where it is exposed to water. On my 18, there were several screw holes for the tank cover that had cracked the gelcoat/fiberglass and were allowing water into the hull. I found the exit point when i first got the boat, and found the entry point under the tank cover when i replaced the engine in 2007. There was also a very thin section of glass/gelcoat in the rigging tunnel right where the starboard access tunnel meets the main rigging tunnel. I can look for after photo's but i just repaired any suspect areas with marine-tex.
jack12	#65  Posted on 08/19/13 - 7:38 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 28 Comments: 1 Joined: 08/12/12	Kamie, One thing to look out for when putting the floor back and using mat is air pockets between the floor and mat. I attempted to put a 2 x 3 panel back by putting a layer of CSM over the foam, some mash, then the panel. As it cured, a large air pocket developed between the panel and CSM. I had to remove it and start over. It was weighed down with only about 30 lbs. I haven't attempted to put it back yet and am trying to figure out a good way to do it. I am thinking I will add a thin layer of foam, for-go the CSM, put down a thick layer of mash, put the panel down with a very heavy weight (at least 60 lbs) so that the mash pressed out all edges. What is your plan for putting back the floor?
tothemax	#66  Posted on 08/20/13 - 5:13 AM
Member Personal Page Posts: 231 Comments: 0 Joined: 08/13/11	My typo, meant to say keel not transom. As you mention about sealing up any water access points. I spent the first season finding and repairing entry points. The main ones were holes in the wells and the tank cover screws. This boats sits with all three aft drains under water with a poorly installed bilge pump in the forward well near the tunnel. Last summer after letting everything dry out really well I resealed the tank cover seam (and screw holes) Sealed the entry points to the well (side cover) and plugged all the extra screw holes. I then installed two of the new style auto sensing Whale bilge pumps in both wells and the boat has stayed nice and dry ever since - including the space on top of the tank - which always had standing water when I first got her. Removing the 8 hp Yammy kicker bought me a few inches of freeboard and out fishing last weekend in the upper bay with three of us never had an issue - there was about a 2' chop. Eventually I may add a 3.5hp Yammy 2 stroke but not until I move the batteries under the bench seat (just for peace of mind). I'm still watching your steps - my hull is in great shape and the transom seems strong so maybe in the future. I appreciate your step by step on the project boat. 1987 Guardian 18 \ 1987 Evinrude 150
kamie	#67  Posted on 08/28/13 - 3:20 PM
Member Personal Page Project Albums Posts: 2975 Comments: 3 Joined: 11/04/05	Thinking some more about putting the deck back in while i wait for the rain to stop so I can remove the rest of the foam. I think this is my working plan. 1. I need to clean up the back side of the fiberglass. Both the cut out and the remaining deck. The wire brush gets out most of the foam but the fiberglass deck will need to be totally free of foam for the reinstall steps. 2. I am leaning toward making a tab out of CSM about 6 inches wide. I would adhere 3 inches to the underside of the deck and let that cure. Once cured, i will fold it over the front and cover with plastic to protect it from newly poured foam. I plan to only foam within 2 inches of the deck edge. 3. Once that foam has been poured, I will wet out the other half of the tab and put resin on the top of the shear braces to hold the deck in place. I am hoping that will be solid enough to hold the deck while I pour the remaining foam. 4. Tipping the boat on the stern, port and starboard sides, I plan to pour the majority of the remaining foam. I am wondering if it is worth wetting out the back of the insert piece with resin to form a bond with the newly poured foam? 5. Refoam the center section with the boat level on the trailer. Once all the foam is replaced, trim and lay down CSM to cover the gaps where I will need to add new gelcoat to the floor. Once I am ready to gelcoat the inside, i will need to make a pattern of the non-skid. Depending on how that goes. I will recreate the non-skid down the center and probably around the cut line to the center piece so it blends back in. Thoughts?
mtown	#68  Posted on 08/29/13 - 6:11 AM
Member Personal Page Posts: 610 Comments: 5 Joined: 07/06/08	In response to item #4 it seems like a good idea to wet the areas about to be re foamed as it will add a little strength as well as adhesion. I assume the foam you are using is pretty sticky on its own, but the coat of resin might also fill tiny cracks you can't see. I am sure you know this but for others, layup resin will remain tacky forever until you deprive it of air so the foam need not be installed while resin is curing.
kamie	#69  Posted on 08/29/13 - 12:04 PM
Member Personal Page Project Albums Posts: 2975 Comments: 3 Joined: 11/04/05	I am using Westsystem epoxy which will cure when exposed to air. The foam is very sticky which is why the tab and any floor I don't want the foam to stick too will be covered by painters tape and plastic. The starboard side is very wet. Not sure if it is more or less than the port but hopefully she is shedding more weight. The foam is damp forward of my cut line so once I get the foam out and the boat weighted I will need to decide if taking up the remaining floor is required.
ritzyrags	#70  Posted on 08/29/13 - 2:29 PM
Member Project Albums Posts: 1003 Comments: 36 Joined: 06/18/08	As the work is progressing Have you thought of beefing up your floor section from the inner side? Keep up the good work Kamie. Dont lie Dont Cheat And dont give up..
mtown	#71  Posted on 08/29/13 - 2:58 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 610 Comments: 5 Joined: 07/06/08	I am a huge fan of epoxy but in this case I would use the poly or vinylester resin for the fact that it will stay tacky and the added strength of epoxy is not a factor. The two part foam I am familiar with is very sticky and yours sounds similar so it may be a moot point. The other reason is if the West blushes at all you may be reducing the bond between the inner hull and the foam.
kamie	#72  Posted on 08/29/13 - 3:59 PM
Member Personal Page Project Albums Posts: 2975 Comments: 3 Joined: 11/04/05	ritzyrags wrote: As the work is progressing Have you thought of beefing up your floor section from the inner side? Keep up the good work Kamie. I had considered it, but i'm not sure. Once the deck and the foam are back in the boat, I assume it will be as strong as it originally was. As long as there are no voids in the foam, that should be plenty strong. I do plan to add more wood under the deck, especially where i plan to install the dual consoles. I have not decided if I will install a piece of wood across the stern to hold gas cans and the batteries. I may in fact move the batteries under the dual consoles, leaving just the gas cans in the stern. About 90% of the foam from the stern section is out. I have a small section in the starboard stern corner to work on tomorrow and that maybe all i can do. If I want to try and get back farther, i will need to pickup a second 12 inch drill but extension. I am afraid that it will wobble too much and not be that effective. Currently i can reach back past the non-skid.
jack12	#73  Posted on 08/29/13 - 6:10 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 28 Comments: 1 Joined: 08/12/12	Sounds like a good plan. One thought is rather than just wetting out the back of the panel, use a thin layer of fiber glass mash on top of the foam, so that when you put in the floor, it squeeze out the edges, and you reduce the chances of an air pocket under the floor. You could add a layer or 2 of of CSM on the whole floor once put back to strengthen the seams and the floor in general. Plus it will improve the surface quite a bit, but does add weight, albeit maybe 10 pounds? Are you taking more pictures? It would be great to see the intermediate steps. I am doing something similar with glassing in two panels on the bottom of a 1963 17. Do you plan on painting after putting back the floor? Edited by jack12 on 08/29/13 - 6:12 PM
kamie	#74  Posted on 08/29/13 - 8:39 PM
Member Personal Page Project Albums Posts: 2975 Comments: 3 Joined: 11/04/05	I will take more photo's after i finish digging out the remaining foam on the starboard side, cleanup some of the foam stuck to the fiberglass and probably get the hull back on the trailer. I also plan to measure and remove enough foam to install new wood under the deck where the consoles will be secured. As long as i have the deck open, might as well make sure i can secure the console to wood and not have screws into the nice dry interior. I will wet sand all the flat areas, and gelcoat the repairs to the floor and make up a tube of gelcoat patch to fill all the little screw holes. The floor will still be a mess but the drive right now is to get a drier boat, put the interior back together so i can flip the hull, sand and respray the outside before winter.
kamie	#75  Posted on 08/30/13 - 2:38 PM
Member Personal Page Project Albums Posts: 2975 Comments: 3 Joined: 11/04/05	The boat currently weights 280#. I am guessing with the weight of the foam that needs to go back in, there is still close to 45# of water give or take. A good bit is still in the stern where i can not reach, possibly along the starboard and port sides where there were unsealed rails and most likely some forward of the cut line. I would float her to see how she sits in the water, but she would be the first whaler to sink so I will pass. When i removed the foam in the stern, i opened up the thru hull. Tomorrow I will begin to prep for foam and replacement of the deck.
wing15601	#76  Posted on 08/30/13 - 4:01 PM
Member Posts: 699 Comments: 0 Joined: 07/14/12	A gallon of water weighs about 8.4 lbs so that means you have about 5.something gallons of water left in there. I think that's quite a lot to leave in there especially because it is concentrated in the stern where you'll add the weight of the engine. I haven't been keeping up with this thread but it is my understanding that several methods of reattaching the deck have been discussed and I would like to post a method I would use. I would glue thin wooden battens to the undersides of the remaining deck so they span the opening where you have removed the deck. After pouring the new foam simply shave it down to the surface of the battens and then place the piece of deck you removed on top of the battens and it should fit perfectly. Thinking over this I would cut 1/4 inch plywood strips about 1.5 inch wide and glue them in on edge and the foam wouldn't deform it that way. Edited by wing15601 on 08/30/13 - 4:05 PM I winter in Ft. Myers and summer in St. Joseph, Michigan. It’s now about 12 years since I’ve joined this group. I gave my 1972 whaler to my daughter and sold the 17’. Bought an O’Day 28 sailboat and sailed on Lake Michigan. Yesterday I bought a 2005 130 Sport.
kamie	#77  Posted on 08/30/13 - 5:02 PM
Member Personal Page Project Albums Posts: 2975 Comments: 3 Joined: 11/04/05	To remove the remaining water I would need to cut open the transom and /or cut open at least the starboard side of the boat. I am hoping that the buoyancy of the dry foam will compensate for the remaining water still trapped in the stern. It means I will move the batteries under the consoles once I finish the interior. Would you pour the foam without the center deck piece and then add that later?
wing15601	#78  Posted on 08/30/13 - 5:18 PM
Member Posts: 699 Comments: 0 Joined: 07/14/12	Could you get to the remaining wet foam by removing a piece of the bottom, like maybe a 6 inch circle? To answer your question, yes I would pour the foam before replacing the deck. With those strips of plywood epoxied in place it would seem the deck would fit perfectly. They would also provide a little support to the finished deck. You don't want any voids under the deck and making sure there are none before you epoxy the deck back in place would in my opinion be the best solution. I'm not really familiar with your hull so I really don't know if that 45 lbs is significant. I will admit that you will have probably a relatively dry hull compared to all the other 13 hulls of your vintage so maybe you shouldn't worry about it. Edited by wing15601 on 08/30/13 - 5:22 PM I winter in Ft. Myers and summer in St. Joseph, Michigan. It’s now about 12 years since I’ve joined this group. I gave my 1972 whaler to my daughter and sold the 17’. Bought an O’Day 28 sailboat and sailed on Lake Michigan. Yesterday I bought a 2005 130 Sport.
kamie	#79  Posted on 08/30/13 - 7:36 PM
Member Personal Page Project Albums Posts: 2975 Comments: 3 Joined: 11/04/05	I would like to stay away from cutting through the outside of the hull. The only other thing I could open up would be the starboard rear step, which i assume is foam filled and access the inner hull that way. It would not surprise me to find water there, as there are a couple open holes. That would still leave water on the starboard side of the hull. Depending on the final numbers mine will loose about 100# of water and there will be around 50# remaining. I know that I can lift the stern of the boat and i can at least roll the boat on it's side and back by myself which i could not do before. I feel pretty confident that i can roll the boat over solo, although if there is another pair of hands around, i won't refuse the help. I will need to dig out the remaining foam so i can access the edge of the remaining deck. If I am on a roll, i may still add a couple sections of 3/4 plywood to the floor where I think my consoles will end up just to have wood to screw into. the plywood strips offer an interesting idea on shaping the foam and attaching the deck back into the boat. It would ensure the foam is solid and without voids. It would also ensure the foam doesn't distort the shape of the deck. Thoughts on opening up the starboard rear step and dig that foam out?
Binkie	#80  Posted on 09/01/13 - 12:14 PM
Member Personal Page Posts: 2012 Comments: 0 Joined: 12/19/05	your comment that states, Depending on the final numbers mine will lose about 100# of water and there will be around 50# remaining. I don't think you will be happy with that solution. You're doing a major job and you should do it to your satisfaction. I would do whatever is necessary to remove ALL of the wet foam, but don't cut through the outside of the hull. It's easier to rebuild the interior. This is a job that you have never attempted before, and apparently no one else here has either.All of the advice here is only conjecture, though well meaning and some are good ideas. No matter, you will learn as you go. So get started, think ahead of what you are doing, and you will be successful. Its impossible to get all your ducks in a row on a job like this becuase there are so many unknowns. You will figure it out as you go. Over the years I have done lots of projects like that, with that attitude, and they always turn out successful. Rich