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Wet Foam - what to do?
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| ericflys |
Posted on 07/08/13 - 3:09 PM
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Binkie, from what I recall Tom has extensive experience with the effects of water on a 13 foot Whaler. I believe he completely dissected a water logged one with the intent of it being a science project, sending core samples out to labs for testing etc. If Tom makes a comment about a 13 Whaler, it is a fact, not an opinion.
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| ritzyrags |
Posted on 07/08/13 - 4:55 PM
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I am glad to see that you have decided to hang in there and to address the extra weight and water problem.
First,I would arm myself with a great deal of patience in regard to the correction of these problems.
I have noted that the foam types used in this construction style has more or less different degrees of retention capacities.
On some of the inner foam inspections seen here
Most will not readily sponge and retain liquids but rather let gravity direct water to the keel section of the hulls.
It has been observed that water will basically"tunnel" or lay against the inner hull surface and readily travel when following the incline at stern.
Your foam may be of a more easily saturated and retaining sort.
You will remember that no mater what your efforts will be, the end results will never be absolutely perfect.
If bent on removing your foam
You will have to carefully trace your cutting lines following your INNER deck surface shown on your photo.
http://www.whalercentral.com/userphot...to_id=1635
It is important that you carefully follow your precise lines with a smaller grinder coupled to a cutting disc.
http://www.whalercentral.com/userphot...oto_id=743
After having precisely cut the lower deck surface.
The ticket will be to carefully detach the deck piece from the foam underneath.
I have used a long handle scraper type to get this done.
The idea is to salvage the deck piece whole, to repair the damages.
Once that you have patiently detached the polyester resin part, you will set it aside for repairs.
You will now be able to have a good lock at what may have been the problems causing this snag.
Remove as much foam as possible,repair and resurface your deck flooring piece, making sure to install "breathing holes" needed when re introducing the liquid to expand and set as foam.
Re attach your bottom deck piece back, refill the foam agents let expand and exit through the breathing holes thus filling all voids.
Care full to not put too much foam liquid as it would balloon your deck structures.
Trim excess foams from breathing holes and fill said holes with pre fab medallions to seal the deal.
Cosmetics to the cut areas will be done last.
Like I did say prior, the refit may not be perfect as in removing of ALL foams but will fill your expectations if done properly.
Bonne Chance.
Dont lie
Dont Cheat
And dont give up.. |
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| kamie |
Posted on 07/08/13 - 5:04 PM
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Here is a link to Metan Marine's photo album of a 13 foot restoration project. I must say they really do, restore the hull to it's former glory.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...amp;type=3
if your not on facebook i'm not sure it will be visible, i searched but it is no longer on their regular site.
I really would only need to open up the deck from the wet/dry line back as the forward section of the hull is dry. The water intrusion is from the the open crack in the floor midship and the unsealed holes/cracks where the seats were secured. I also noticed that the exposed foam dries quickly, it might make easier going if I allowed the foam to dry, then pulverize it until i get to the really wet foam and then allow the newly exposed foam to dry before continuing. Pulverizing the wet foam turns it into what looks like smashed apple.
The wet/dry line is roughly half of the boat, the bow half is dry and the stern half is wet. Probably not 100% but close. That means the bow and stern should each weigh 125#. In the case of this boat, the bow is fine but the stern comes in at 275#, add to that 100# engine and humans and pets, and you have a stern swamped boat.
Not quite sure i'm ready to give the boat to a fish restaurant, but i have been warned about turning it into a planter in the front yard.
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| Binkie |
Posted on 07/08/13 - 6:04 PM
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Ritzy sez; It has been observed that water will basically"tunnel" or lay against the inner hull surface and readily travel when following the incline at stern.
Not so, according to Tom, the wet foam remains firmly attached to the hull, so water can't tunnel under or over the foam. I saw different when I pulled up a wet section of deck on my 15 footer. There was no foam attached to the wet underside of the deck.
Looks like Metan did the job a little different than Ritzy's explanation, but if you have the money, the manpower the vacuam bagging equipment and the know how you can do a successful job. Good luck
I would go for a few fish dinners myself.
Rich |
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| mtown |
Posted on 07/08/13 - 7:33 PM
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The Metan job is beautiful but I would bet it cost $15,000. Since you have the floor as open as it is already why not "make" a blade for a sawzall out of something like a discarded batten from a sail or some other material that will cut through the foam but not the skin of the floor or bottom. Sort of create an electric carving knife. Serations could be made in the blade as needed and you could make it pliable enough to follow the contours. I have removed a lot of similar foam [used as a spray insulation on the roof of buildings] and if you can detach it from the substrate it could be removed in fairly large chunks. You would still probably have to use the long wire brush idea to get back at the transom.
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| ritzyrags |
Posted on 07/08/13 - 9:25 PM
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There is no doubt that good manners could be brushed on in some of the comments read from above .
Talk is cheap
And going on record giving freely of our experience
An acknowledgement should be the very least that We would expect.
On the factual front
The Metan group is composed of a crew of numerous seasoned glass workers
And this global experience is well tagged at the prices posted on all of their finished projects.
One Capital fact should be mentioned here.
Most if not all of their refits are done with a finished product called Epoxy paint.
The "REAL"and fateful resurfacing will be done with gellcoat
And this for the authenticity of a TRUE CLASSIC refit.
I would very much doubt that Metan would realistically invest in the countless hours needed for a whole Polyester Resin resurfacing involving the vast amount of spraying and sanding needed to bring it back to a near perfect and fateful product.
So all in all, not a very realistic comparison to the vast majority of do it yourselves as Kamie being one of the latest questioner here.
And as far as the negative hacks out there
The comments made and actually backed by Our own manual works in these field, will not be marginalized by so and so quoting third and fourth parties supposed comments.
For the educated ones
There is always something new and unusual to be gathered and sometimes shared with the curious ones.
You did ask and I did respond.
Would that possibly be good enough for you Kamie from West Virginia?
Dont lie
Dont Cheat
And dont give up.. |
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| Binkie |
Posted on 07/09/13 - 7:39 AM
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Kamie, here is an idea I just had. Mtown hit on a good idea with a long sawzall blade. I think a electric carving knife would be easier to use. I used one several times to cut up large pieces of dense foam for cushions. It cuts foam like butter and does a nice neat job, so there in no reason it would not work for removing foam in your boat. I bought mine at Target for about $10. I don't use it to carve roasts or turkey, but then I don't eat that stuff anyway. You say the wet foam is in the mid to rear portion of the boat. Cut 12"x12" squares out of your deck. You should have about 12" between these cutouts. Cut them out with your circular saw set on 45 degrees inward. Number these cutouts and also draw an arrow pointing forward. the idea is your going to replace them as you foam the deck. The whole premise here is that the deck is not rotted and is worth reusing. The 13 footer due to is its convex shape is not plywood based. Now it should be easy to clean out the foam with your carving knife. OK, next pick up a concrete block for each square hole you cut. Use the right type of foam, I think 4 pound, but you can reaserch this and buy the foam, . Now start foaming toward the front and work towards the rear. Pour the foam in through the square holes, (you will have to practice to get the right amount, but when you think you have enough replace the cutout and put a conctret block on top. they weigh about 40 lbs, and should hold the cutout down. The 45 degree cut you made will keep them from falling into the foam. Just keep at it until you get them all filled. The foam will stick the cutouts down, so they just need to be glassed in. then glass over the whole area with glass mat.
This idea popped into my head a little while ago while I'm out in my garage laminating the center console mold I'm building. So I'm typng this on a break. Hope it helps. Mtowns idea got me thinking.
Rich |
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| Binkie |
Posted on 07/09/13 - 8:50 AM
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one other thing, lay the concrete blocks the long way, they are 16" long, not on end. that way they won't push the cutouts into the hole. I think this idea will work. If I could find a waterlogged 13 footer for next to or free, I would try this mthod myself, rid the boat of waterlogged foam, then sell it and make a few $$.
Rich |
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| kamie |
Posted on 07/09/13 - 9:04 AM
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I try the carving knife, I don't own one currently but a $10 target / walmart special is not too high a cost. Less than most of the power tools I buy. I did learn from looking at the Metan photo pages that to do the foam they tip the boat, rather than hope it runs in the correct direction. I have done foam work on the outside and it goes everywhere but where you want it. Learning how they directed the foam up under the deck was important.
Great suggestions everyone.
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| Binkie |
Posted on 07/09/13 - 10:42 AM
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Good idea with the tilting thing. block up the bow maybe 6 inches and start foaming from the stern. If you lay the blocks over the covered poured spaces, the expanding foam will move forward and the blocks will keep the covers in place.
Rich |
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| kamie |
Posted on 07/09/13 - 3:57 PM
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I am going to go back to my first idea and switch to the electric knife or a similar tool to remove the foam. Ideally if I can get it removed without cutting up the deck it would be better. Even if that means cutting the access holes where i actually need to repair gelcoat anyway.
One question to Ritzy, if I cut out the entire back half of the deck, how would i reattach it? Not sure i can reach the sides from under the deck to secure it using resin and fiberglass? I could potentially reach most of the way around given the access holes i already have, just looking for thoughts?
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| ritzyrags |
Posted on 07/09/13 - 11:02 PM
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[ just looking for thoughts?]
Your perseverance in trying to do your best to refit this humble piece of Whaler history and to the fact that Girls from the South are the INN thing on this list;
I will put some of my thoughts in momentarily managing this refit from my "beach front" seating position here on the Big Island;
In the needs for repairing original parts,I have carefully separated and re attached polyester structures on numerous occasions.
My mentality toward this specific example of refit would be to do the proper thing and do what needs to be structurally done.
The water intrusion my have gotten into some of the inner sections but you must envision the whole "finished product"
In order to make this refit a reality you will have to take the path of removing the whole lower section of this sweet little tender.
I would not recommend to replace half the foam on the bottom structure.
You should be forceful in the fact that to replace ALL bottom foam will make this repair a reality.
Precisely trace the FULL extent of the LOWER deck structure
http://www.whalercentral.com/userphot...to_id=1635
From front to back and importantly giving you FLAT SURFACE left (3 inches) from the 90 some degrees angle to gunwale rise.
This, being done to give the refastening of the removed deck structure a decent point of purchase when replacing the "Lid" to the deck's bottom.
When refastening your carefully removed and repaired deck piece
http://www.whalercentral.com/showuser...oto_id=745
You will be wise to plan your refoaming using several people pouring carefully monitored quantities of liquid at the same time.
Digest this and act accordingly.
PS-I would enjoy to put a face to the name.
Dont lie
Dont Cheat
And dont give up.. |
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| Binkie |
Posted on 07/10/13 - 8:06 PM
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Hope you start back on your 13 footer soon, Remember every thing you can envision you can build if you have the perseverance.
Rich |
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| ritzyrags |
Posted on 07/11/13 - 12:42 AM
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[quote]ritzyrags wrote:
[ just looking for thoughts?]
Your perseverance in trying to do your best to refit this humble piece of Whaler history.
And to the fact that Girls from the South are the INN thing on this list;
(Was there ever a doubt)
I will put some of my thoughts in momentarily managing this refit from my "beach front" seating position here on the Big Island;
In the needs for repairing original parts,I have carefully separated and re attached polyester structures on numerous occasions.
My mentality toward this specific example of a refit would be to do the proper thing and to be doing what needs to be structurally done.
The water intrusion in its tracing may have gotten into some of the inner sections
Keep in mind of your vision of the whole "finished product"
In order to make this refit into a reality you will have to take the path of; 1-Removing the whole lower section of this sweet little tender.
I would not recommend to replace half the foam on the bottom structure.
2-You should be forceful in the fact that to replace ALL bottom foam will make this repair a reality.
Precisely trace the FULL extent of the LOWER deck structure
http://www.whalercentral.com/userphot...to_id=1635
From front to back and importantly giving you FLAT SURFACE left (3 inches) from the 90 some degrees angle to gunwale rise.
This, being done to give the refastening of the removed deck structure a decent point of purchase when replacing the "Lid" to the deck's bottom.
When refastening your carefully removed and repaired deck piece
http://www.whalercentral.com/showuser...oto_id=745
You will be wise to plan your re foaming using several people pouring carefully monitored quantities of liquid at the same time.
Digest this and act accordingly.
Busy day, Late and got to be going.
Dont lie
Dont Cheat
And dont give up.. |
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| kamie |
Posted on 07/11/13 - 5:46 AM
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I am working up the next plan and gathering appropiate new tools based on the discussions. I am not sure i need to pull the foam from the front half of the boat. From my current testing that is all dry, with maybe some damp spots around all the screw holes. The only reason i would consider pulling up the entire floor is to make it easier to reattach the floor.
Here is my next plan so far:
1. working from the back to the front use the electric knife / wire brush to remove the foam.
2. If I can remove the foam successfully, then i will need to brace up the floor. I can use 2x4 blocks to keep it from sagging.
3. If i can not remove the foam successfully, then i will proceed to cut out the section of floor over the wet foam.
4. remove the foam until i have removed all the wet foam.
5. go weight the boat - I am going to assume at this point the boat will weigh close to 250#. When i repaired the big hole from the outside the foam up the sides of the boat was dry. I don't expect to find much other water intrusion, other than the floor. Anything from the screw holes should be small and localized.
6. If we are significantly over 250#, look for more water, otherwise launch the boat in the yard to begin the refoaming process. This way I can tilt the boat and get the foam to run into any corners rather easily.
7. Position additional 1x6 boards where I will need backing support for screwing down batteries, gas tanks or the new interior.
8. Start pouring foam
chances are, on my next trip down to the boat, i will get started but by no means finished the next set of steps. I will keep everyone posted on how things start to progress.
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| MG56 |
Posted on 07/11/13 - 5:51 AM
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It seems to me that if you are going to fill a large area with foam your biggest concern will be how to limit the expansion. If you intead to remove the foam just leaving the inner & outer shells you will find they are rather flimsy, and any area not completely supported will bulge out.
Ya?
Another thought I had was why not remove the the bottom for access, the bottom the much easier to re-glass back in?
Edited by MG56 on 07/11/13 - 5:53 AM |
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| Binkie |
Posted on 07/11/13 - 10:22 AM
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Instead of using wood blocks to keep the deck from sagging after the foam has been removed use PVC pipe. get a piece of 1" sched 40 and just cut them to whatever length needed. You can just leave them there, not a good idea to leave wood blocks in place. Now you need to think about how to keep the deck from growing a belly when it expands. No way to pour the exact amount needed. Either too much or too little. Some expansion holes need to be drilled in the deck before foaming. I don't think you are ready to start. Your plan is too sketchy. If you have any doubts you won't be successful. People have removed sections of the bottom to remove bad foam. Its another way to do it, but you already have holes in your deck, so why change direction in mid stream., and the deck which is thin in a 13 footer would still have to be suported if you flipped the boat and went through the bottom.
Edited by Joe Kriz on 07/11/13 - 12:01 PM
Rich |
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| kamie |
Posted on 07/11/13 - 11:53 AM
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I wasn't planning on pouring it all at the same time. When i get to that point, i will pour the stern section with the boat tipped up on it's stern. Then roll the boat either port or starboard and pour that section, then finally pour the remaining center section. At all points there are enough escape holes to keep from pushing up the deck especially if i mix small enough batches of foam. I can't remember but I believe you can add another layer of foam as soon as the current layer stops expanding.
What is the issue leaving blocks of wood in the hull? There is wood foamed into the hull now?
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| Binkie |
Posted on 07/11/13 - 2:44 PM
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What is the issue leaving blocks of wood in the hull? There is wood foamed into the hull now?
Probably no issue, but when you have a solid piece of 2x4 wedged on end between the bottom and the floor, you create a direct shock with no give if you take a hard hit from waves. The rest of the hull
will slightly compress and the shock would be less, it stands to reason. Might eventually crack the deck at the point of the wood. It just doesn't seem like a professional way to do it. The deadwood in the hull is to screw things into, and its a piece of plywood glued to the underside of the deck..
The best thing to do first is to remove all of the wet foam, and see what you have. It might be like a wet piece of baloney, or it might stand by itself. Then a decision can be made how to deal with it. I'm only trying to help with some ideas, I don't know what you're looking for, ideas or just a confirmation of your ideas.
Good luck with your project.
Rich |
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| mtown |
Posted on 07/11/13 - 3:02 PM
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This project intrigues me and I keep thinking how to create a reverse mold of the existing floor. How about taking a large sheet of cardboard that has enough flex an also enough stiffness to conform to the rear section being replaced. Compress it after cutting to shape and get the contours to match. While in place, epoxy or glass on top of the cardboard to make it keep its shape and after that is set you should be able to remove it in one piece leaving you with a reverse of the floor. It would be worth while to place plastic sheet under it in case any resin seeped thru the cardboard. Now when you pour the foam you have a barrier the proper shape to act as a "mold". Escape holes would be needed for excess expansion and lots of weight or bracing on the top side of the cardboard mold would be required. I agree about the wood bracing creating hard spots and would not use that even though I probably would have without reading this thread. Wood will be fine encapsulated in the foam but not good if it touches the bottom and the deck.
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