|
Wet Foam - what to do?
|
| kamie |
Posted on 07/06/13 - 12:52 PM
|
Member
Personal Page
Project Albums
Posts: 2975
Comments:
3
Joined: 11/04/05
|
I decided this holiday weekend to go back to work on my project 13 footer. My plan was to cut the non-skid so i could access the foam and dig out the wet stuff. To be sure she hadn't miraculously dried, i weighted the boat and sure enough she still weighs 400# or than 150# heavier than a bare 13 footer should weigh.
I realized that my plan to dig out the foam while leaving the floor in place has huge issues, not the least of which is how to stabilize the floor when you pull out the foam. OK, that an how to get out the foam? I can basically pulverize the foam with a wire brush chucked into the drill but that will take a long, long time.
Here is my project album so you can catch up on the progress, and see just how wet she is.
http://www.whalercentral.com/userphot...lbum_id=37
I am torn between, cutting out the rest of the floor, removing the foam and trying to get her as light as possible and replacing the foam i have pulled out, sealing up the boat and going boating. Hence the poll.
Thoughts from the members?
|
| |
|
|
| ritzyrags |
Posted on 07/06/13 - 10:09 PM
|
Member
Project Albums
Posts: 1003
Comments:
36
Joined: 06/18/08
|
Well Kamie from West Virginia,
Looks like you are having a ton of good fun refitting that Classic 13.
And I hope that you will get my meaning of;
In for a penny,
In for a pound...
If time is no object to you
And this in the sake to do this detail in a most non destructive way as possible
I personally would put the hull up against a fair structure
being layed at an 85' angle
And let gravity slowly move water
toward the ground or stern section.
You may or may not have enough breathing holes to remove most condensate from the foam structures and will deal accordingly.
I have proven that time, temperature and the method of this action will give total satisfaction in removing water from the inner structures of your hull.
http://www.whalercentral.com/userphot...oto_id=732
As you can see from this photo
The undeniable signs of a dried up water intrusion has been dealt with and has been cured using this method.
The angle of inclination was not as the prescribed 80' described here but warehoused storage time did the trick.
You may be inclined to get it done quick and take the floor out and refoam.
I could expand on this method more extensively if you want to take that route.
Dont lie
Dont Cheat
And dont give up.. |
| |
|
|
| Binkie |
Posted on 07/07/13 - 4:17 AM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 2012
Comments:
0
Joined: 12/19/05
|
As I recall you have had this boat for a number of years and have tried the drip method without success. You have close to 20 gallons of water in the foam, no way it will never dry out. So cut up the floor and pull the foam out, Cut the wet foam with a handsaw in small sections and use whatever is neccesary to clean out the foam. Probably a wide 6" chisle used for concrete will work. I would enjoy reading ritzy's method of replacing the floor. Its been done before, but the boat will never be worth what an original dry one is simply becuase you can buy a good dry 250# 13 footer for less than a grand.
rich
Rich |
| |
|
|
| Derwd24 |
Posted on 07/07/13 - 7:48 AM
|
Member
Posts: 1607
Comments:
9
Joined: 05/09/07
|
The thing that always worries me about letting existing foam dry out is that the closed cell structure of the foam is already damaged. So if there's any future intrusion of water, the old foam seems more ready to absorb it than new would.
As far as you've gone already, might as well go all the way with new foam and have a nice, dry, high floating 13.
Dave - 1983 Outrage 22 |
| |
|
|
| kamie |
Posted on 07/07/13 - 10:58 AM
|
Member
Personal Page
Project Albums
Posts: 2975
Comments:
3
Joined: 11/04/05
|
The hull sat upside down with holes cut in the deck for almost 3 1/2 years and didn't shed a pound.
I too would love to hear of ritzy's method for replacing the floor. That is probably what concerns me most about cutting it up.
|
| |
|
|
| jamesgt727 |
Posted on 07/07/13 - 2:28 PM
|
Member
Personal Page
Project Albums
Posts: 360
Comments:
0
Joined: 01/17/11
|
Neither, try my method. Since you have the floor open, its perfect time and its CHEAP.
Buy three or four 64oz cans of Damp Rid, a large plastic sheet (drop cloth) and high quality masking tape. Seal the open containers in like this:
http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u...7/0013.jpg
MAKE SURE THE SYSTEM IS AIRTIGHT AND CHECK IT OFTEN, ADDING TAPE, etc.
Roll out into Sun as often as you can, until you stop seeing condensation form on this inside edges, particularly near the edges. Three weeks should do it. If you over dry, the gelcoat will feel strange, but no worries the humidity in the air will bring it back to normal in a few days. I successfully dried all of my Whaler hulls this way. I think is cost me $60.00. This method made my Black 15 "bone dry" as I was trying to make the hull as light as possible.
Edited by jamesgt727 on 07/07/13 - 2:31 PM |
| |
|
|
| kamie |
Posted on 07/07/13 - 2:51 PM
|
Member
Personal Page
Project Albums
Posts: 2975
Comments:
3
Joined: 11/04/05
|
james
interesting idea, do you have before and after weights on the hulls?
The sitting in the sun is not an issue, the challenge might be that I am nowhere near the boat normally so it would only get checked weekly and would need to sit outside as i have no garage.
|
| |
|
|
| jamesgt727 |
Posted on 07/07/13 - 3:27 PM
|
Member
Personal Page
Project Albums
Posts: 360
Comments:
0
Joined: 01/17/11
|
Unfortunately I do not, but I can tell you that the there were a few pounds of water in each bucket when I removed them. The previous owner had drilled large access plate holes and even mounted a trolling motor to the bow. My hull was stored outside to the original owner for under the same tree for 26 years. If you knew me you would understand, that I considered extreme measures to dry this hull, I have a 'drive-in' sized drying oven that we use to dry rolls of polycarbonate sheet that was a "fall back option". This method was effective, core drills deep in the hull and transom proved it.
As an addendum to my instructions above use heavier plastic, and prop up the plastic so rain water will not accumulate. You might want to put a continuous double sided adhesive strip around the hull first then stick the plastic to it, use 3M, no walmart brand, or it will be impossible to get off.
Edited by jamesgt727 on 07/07/13 - 3:58 PM |
| |
|
|
| butchdavis |
Posted on 07/07/13 - 4:10 PM
|
Member
Posts: 826
Comments:
0
Joined: 11/22/11
|
In answer to the survey question, it depends.
If I could live with it forever, I would.
If I couldn't live with it and I was in love with the boat, I'd repair it.
If I couldn't live with it and didn't think it was worth the cost and/or effort to repair, I'd sell the boat and start over. There are a lot of nice classic 13s out there.
Butch |
| |
|
|
| Bake |
Posted on 07/07/13 - 7:40 PM
|
Member
Personal Page
Project Albums
Posts: 902
Comments:
8
Joined: 01/30/06
|
I voted to close it up and go boating. That is much better than the cost involved in removing the entire floor and all the foam. I would try the Damp rid first though. It would not cost much or take a lot of time.
You will end up with extra weight in the boat if you pull the entire floor and have to fiberglass a floor in prior to pouring the foam. So How much weight will you really be shedding by doing a floor?
|
| |
|
|
| Binkie |
Posted on 07/08/13 - 6:37 AM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 2012
Comments:
0
Joined: 12/19/05
|
Problem is waterlogged foam, condenses and pulls away from the glass shell, so it is useless, and never can be restored.
Rich |
| |
|
|
| Binkie |
Posted on 07/08/13 - 6:49 AM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 2012
Comments:
0
Joined: 12/19/05
|
DampRid is used for pulling out the humidity in the air. Not sure it would pull 20 gallons of water from the saturated foam that is under the deck. I don't think the floor was removed, just some holes cut through it to try and remove moisture.
Rich |
| |
|
|
| Tom W Clark |
Posted on 07/08/13 - 7:40 AM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 4280
Comments:
7
Joined: 09/30/05
|
Problem is waterlogged foam, condenses and pulls away from the glass shell, so it is useless, and never can be restored.
That is utter nonsense. Wet foam does not pull away from the 'glass skins.
|
| |
|
|
| Tom W Clark |
Posted on 07/08/13 - 7:43 AM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 4280
Comments:
7
Joined: 09/30/05
|
The thing that always worries me about letting existing foam dry out is that the closed cell structure of the foam is already damaged.
Not necessarily. There is a notion that the closed cells of the foam in Whalers are 100 percent closed, but that is not true. I suspect the foam with water in it has suffered some break down of the cell walls, but it is not a black and white distinction. Microscopic examination of formerly waterlogged foam and never-waterlogged foam shows it looks much the same.
|
| |
|
|
| Tom W Clark |
Posted on 07/08/13 - 7:46 AM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 4280
Comments:
7
Joined: 09/30/05
|
DampRid is calcium chloride. You can buy huge bags of it from your local concrete supplier.
|
| |
|
|
| Binkie |
Posted on 07/08/13 - 8:11 AM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 2012
Comments:
0
Joined: 12/19/05
|
My comment that wet foam will pull away from the glass skin, I used the wrong word. It is supposed to stick to the exterior glass, and the underside of the plywood decks, which I think is the whole Whaler concept, and I know from experience that it doesn't. When I cut out a portion (6"x 4ft or so) in the deck of my 15 footer, to build a rigging tunnel, this is what I found. There were 4 or five screw holes in the old deck that were not properly sealed, and water intruded into the foam for about an inch deep. The deck itself had some rot around the screw holes. The plywood itself was 1/2" CDX 3 core plywood, the same stuff we used to sheet the roofs on houses. So much for using quality materials. Also, when I pulled up that section of plywood on the dry portion, the foam was adhered to it, and on the small wet section, the wet wood was clean of foam and pulled away from the wood which had slightly condenced. I then dug out the foam under the removed deck to make a cavity for the tunnel.
Tom, you're good at giving negative answers as to why someone is wrong, how about some advice on how Kamie can solve this wet foam problem, and rid the foam of water or build a new foam filled deck.
Stick to prop advice, please.
Rich |
| |
|
|
| Jay Fitz |
Posted on 07/08/13 - 9:26 AM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 343
Comments:
0
Joined: 09/08/10
|
Can someone look at the pic you posted, first one on the third page of your album, and comment on how it sits??
I cannot, but someone who has a 13 or worked on one should be able to tell if it's sitting too low from that picture. If it sits OK, would you leave it wet, or still want to dry it out?
|
| |
|
|
| Binkie |
Posted on 07/08/13 - 10:22 AM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 2012
Comments:
0
Joined: 12/19/05
|
If you come across a 13 ft Whaler sitting on a trailer or blocks, and there is no outboard installed, an average person should be able to lift up the stern corner of the boat. (Not the whole stern) with out alot of strain. My 13 footer, bare hull weighs 280 lbs on a scale. Five years ago, age 70, I rolled it over by myself.
Rich |
| |
|
|
| kamie |
Posted on 07/08/13 - 11:42 AM
|
Member
Personal Page
Project Albums
Posts: 2975
Comments:
3
Joined: 11/04/05
|
There are some open holes in the deck but it is by no means all open. The last photo on my project album shows the current state or here is a link
http://www.whalercentral.com/userphot...to_id=1636
There is no way to lift the stern of this 13, I can lift and move the bow but the stern, where the water is, is way too heavy
|
| |
|
|
| Binkie |
Posted on 07/08/13 - 2:28 PM
|
Member
Personal Page
Posts: 2012
Comments:
0
Joined: 12/19/05
|
Kamie, This is just my opinion, but I think you have two options. You have had this boat for a long time, you have been writing about restoring it for years, so you must have an emotional attachment to it. I've searched the internet to find someone with pics that replaced the floor in a 13 footer but no luck. As you know the floor is not plywood flat. A few years ago I restored a bass boat that was foam filled beneath the floor and water intruded into the foam and the plywood floor was soft. It was a fairly easy job, I ripped out the old floor and dug out the foam. the boat had glass stringers, So I just screwed new plywood down, filled the cavities with foam put some carpet on the plywood and everything was new. Not so on your Whaler. Personally, I can't think of a way to make it look original, and if it looks odd with a flat floor, well it won't be worth what is costs to do that job. I would give up on it, and donate it to a nice fish restaurant who would use it for a decoration. You might get a few fish dinners out of it too.
Rich |
| |
|
